Host: PleaseWakeMeUp Idler
January 7, 2008
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Hello Wayne, are you hear for ARt Talk?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Hello Dharma, welcome
Larkum Woodget: brb
RAG Randt: hi all
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Hello RAG, have a seat and welcome to ARt Talk
Filthy Fluno: hey everyone!
Filthy Fluno: Rag is our new guest artist
Filthy Fluno: he's from the boston area
Gracie Kendal: Hi Rag :)
Filthy Fluno: is is a professional illustrator
Filthy Fluno: and great super nice dude
Wayne Bohemia: Hi Rag :)
RAG Randt: hi all
Alizarin Goldflake: funny this topic should come up just now
Filthy Fluno: with great taste in jambalya
Dharma Voyager: howdy
Larkum Woodget: bk
Gracie Kendal: oh nooo, why??
RAG Randt: vas is topic?
Larkum Woodget: Hi Rag :-)
RAG Randt: hi
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: ok ok ok
Scarp Godenot: Had to shoot the hat, Gracie.... heh
Alizarin Goldflake: i am a little freaked about somebody obsessively photographing my sl art
RAG Randt: what is the topic tonight
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Welcome all, thanks for coming by
Gracie Kendal: Oh wow
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I'm your host, the cube in the corner
Alizarin Goldflake: cute cube :)\
Wayne Bohemia: lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Tonight we'll be talking about Intellectual Property, Theft and Copyright in the SL Art world.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: There was a lot of interest in this during the last talk, so I thought I'd break it out into its own talk
Larkum Woodget: we might as well since there's so little we can do about in the RL lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Welocme Klaatu,
Dharma Voyager: can't do much about it here either
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Hello again Sky
Alizarin Goldflake: i have a real specific question
Dharma Voyager: oooo lovely av Sky
Gracie Kendal: Hi Sky :))
Gracie Kendal: thx for your comments :))
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: go Alizarin
Sky Hye: Hi All! :)
Klaatu Congrejo: Hello PleaseWakeMeUp
Alizarin Goldflake: hi Klaatu
Wayne Bohemia: OMG... that av is cool Sky :)
Larkum Woodget: OMG a leafy sea dragon! I love those XD
Sky Hye: Indeed!
Alizarin Goldflake: i STILL like your haiur
Larkum Woodget: Hi Sky :-)
Alizarin Goldflake: hair*
Sky Hye: Hi Larkum
Cienega Soon: hello all
Filthy Fluno: hello y'all
Gracie Kendal: Hiya :))
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: hello, have a seat
Cienega Soon: this is my first time here as you can see
RAG Randt: mine too
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Not a problem, lots of new faces here tonight
Dharma Voyager: mine three
Gracie Kendal: we may need to start makign the circle bigger...LOL
Wayne Bohemia: lol same here Cienega.. join the club lol
Filthy Fluno: how about we spend a minute with new peeps introducing themselves?
Alizarin Goldflake: Filthy, speaking of hair, did your fro get even bigger?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Yes, we will!
Scarp Godenot: Hi Cienega, I met you at your Avatrait opening.
Filthy Fluno: yes alizarin
Filthy Fluno: it did
Alizarin Goldflake: lol
Gracie Kendal: LOL
Filthy Fluno: it gets bigger as my brain gets smalla
Cienega Soon: hello Scarp
Alizarin Goldflake: naw ..
Larkum Woodget: Filthy's fro is going to take over SL- like the Blob
Cienega Soon: lol
Wayne Bohemia: lol
Filthy Fluno: aha ahahahaha
Filthy Fluno: ok ok
Alizarin Goldflake: how big can hair get??
Alizarin Goldflake: megaprim hair
Filthy Fluno: i'll put it away if you guys don't behave
Cienega Soon: its charming
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: ok, shoall we start?
RAG Randt: yes
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Alizarin, you had a question
Filthy Fluno: do any of the new peeps wanna say who they are?
Alizarin Goldflake: real shortie
Sky Hye: Let's start.
Filthy Fluno: hi sky
Sky Hye: Hi Filthy
Larkum Woodget: Hi Calli
Wayne Bohemia: I dont mind introducing myself :)
Gracie Kendal: Hi Callipygian :)
RAG Randt: I am rag randt illustrator guest of Filthy
Alizarin Goldflake: if you play a 10 second wav file from an album - is that copyright infringement?
Callipygian Christensen: Hi Larkum
Callipygian Christensen: hey Gracie
Filthy Fluno: please introduce yourself wayne
Larkum Woodget: technically yes in most cases
Wayne Bohemia: Hi all im Wayne, i am 19 in RL and a keen artist, i sell abstract and photographic art here in SL :)
Alizarin Goldflake: is it prosecutable?
Scarp Godenot: Alizarin, you are probably OK if you don't sell anything with that in it.
Filthy Fluno: great
Filthy Fluno: nice meeting you wayne
Alizarin Goldflake: ok i mean if you put it in a build
Alizarin Goldflake: to sell
Wayne Bohemia: Thanks Filthy :)
Larkum Woodget: I don't think they go after you unless you have a hard drive bulging with pirate stuff
Scarp Godenot: Nope, you can't put itin a build for anybody but yourself.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I just checked with Sherpa who has some experience in RL getting permission for song lyrics, there is NO minimum acceptable use and the record companies do hunt you down
Filthy Fluno: ok
Dharma Voyager: excep for back up purposes
Alizarin Goldflake: really!!
Scarp Godenot: I know about this stuff a little because my wife is an intellectual property lawyer....
Larkum Woodget: omg
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: yay! That's great, is she with your now?
Alizarin Goldflake: ok i am glad i checked
Larkum Woodget: Hi Anna
Scarp Godenot: I can yell across the room for a critical question. ha ha
Gracie Kendal: Hiya Anna, long time :))
Filthy Fluno: hi anna
Wayne Bohemia: Hi Anna :)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: hello Anna, have a seat and welcome
Filthy Fluno: we're talking about intellectual property and copyright issues as they pertain to virtual stuff
Filthy Fluno: right?
Filthy Fluno: ?
Alizarin Goldflake: so if i make a drawing and somebody takes a 32 x 32 clip of it that is also infringment
Filthy Fluno: i think
Alizarin Goldflake: ?
RAG Randt: onlyl if they sell it
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Getting permission can be tricky, you have to hunt down the owner and there is often a small filing fee, but if you are using a lot of text, it really adds up.
Scarp Godenot: Everything you make is copyrighted on creation.
Alizarin Goldflake: so selling is the key
Filthy Fluno: yea.. RAG has great experience with this i think
Larkum Woodget: what about if you manipulate a digital image - remove elements- add some- alter the colour etc
Alizarin Goldflake: this is very helpful ty
RAG Randt: yes i infringe alll the time:)
Gracie Kendal: It also depends...the work that I do...in my collages...I take other peoples art....
Gracie Kendal: BUT...
Larkum Woodget: does it make it your own?
Wayne Bohemia: lol RAG :D
Gracie Kendal: I dont use it in the same way...
Scarp Godenot: Altering an image is called a d
Scarp Godenot: derivative work
Scarp Godenot: And you need permission.
Dharma Voyager: still nead permission for derivative work don't you?
Scarp Godenot: Yep
RAG Randt: no
Sky Hye: Thank goodness for that!
Wayne Bohemia: Wow... thats interesting :)
Alizarin Goldflake: wouch
Callipygian Christensen: well, appropriation art is all about taking other's images too..and its considered an acceptable thing - it gets confsing
Dharma Voyager: ahh so taking an image 32 x 32 or any edit should also be a derivative work?
Scarp Godenot: Appropriationists are under serious legal attack right now.
Filthy Fluno: scarp.. what's that?
Dharma Voyager: seems like a slippery slope
Callipygian Christensen: I guess its illgal until the guggenheim says you are a groudndbreaaker lol
Scarp Godenot: Have you heard of the Jeff Koons case?
Dharma Voyager: hahahah
Filthy Fluno: ahahahaha
Larkum Woodget: LOL
Filthy Fluno: great point calli
Wayne Bohemia: lol
Cienega Soon: lol
Filthy Fluno: no
Alizarin Goldflake: tell about the Koons!
Filthy Fluno: what about it scarp
Scarp Godenot: Jeff Koons made a sculpure that was an exact copy of a photo, he was sued and he lost.
Larkum Woodget: Hi Beebub
Callipygian Christensen: Exactly Scrap, but Koons doenst own the images..he was paid for them..so the company owning the ads would have to object I think
Alizarin Goldflake: um well that is larger scale than what we are doing here
Callipygian Christensen: oh..I am thinkingof something else..sorry lol
Dharma Voyager: I'm not sure scale matters does it?
Cienega Soon: is that the same as taking a snapshot of a scupture and selling your pic as art?
Scarp Godenot: Koons made sculptures not images. and he had to pay the photographer
RAG Randt: scale does not matter
Alizarin Goldflake: in rl anything that is in the public view can be photographed
Cienega Soon: oh
Scarp Godenot: Cienega it is not the same thing surprisingly
Cienega Soon: yes
Larkum Woodget: do I need permission from the estate of Mr Eiffel when I go to Paris and draw his tower?
RAG Randt: no
Callipygian Christensen: Cienega, I do that sometimes -although the imge is usually not just the sculpture - I always show the creator and give a coppy though and find that works well
Alizarin Goldflake: not if it is visible from a bpulic road
Cienega Soon: wow
Alizarin Goldflake: public*
Scarp Godenot: Larkum, no you don't
Wayne Bohemia: lol Larkum... good point :)
Larkum Woodget: XD
Gracie Kendal: plus, its older than 75 years old
Gracie Kendal: spo its public domain
Larkum Woodget: I was being facecious
Cienega Soon: well then how is that crossing over in to SL
Alizarin Goldflake: so does being in sl constitute being on a public road?
Cienega Soon: everyhing is art work brought in
RAG Randt: good question
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: that sculptor in CHicago with the mirrored thing was trynig to sue peple for taking picutres of it
Scarp Godenot: I think a couple of cities tried to tradmark their city skylines. they failed I think.
Callipygian Christensen: it makes me nuts to see things that are ripped form the web, or even picasso's being sold ehre though
Scarp Godenot: Public domain is for editorial or educational purposes.
Larkum Woodget: I think a lot of people feel that way about anything on eht web- it's open season
Callipygian Christensen: and if you point out this is wrong, you usualy get 'so?'
Larkum Woodget: In SL we get territorial I think because of the land
Alizarin Goldflake: yes ethics is a thing of the past
Cienega Soon nods
RAG Randt: fair useage is for educational purpotses
Scarp Godenot: I get ripped off on the web all the time, I just see that as inevitable and 'cest la vie...
Dharma Voyager: you can release you work to public domain on the internet if you state so
RAG Randt: it depends on who rips you off
Larkum Woodget: I stole someone's photo of a teddy bear today to use for the logo of my stop infant circumcision group
Alizarin Goldflake: point taken - dont put things on the web and expect to keep them
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: or use a license like Creative Commons, that is better
Alizarin Goldflake: some google pix are public domain
Sky Hye: Explain creative commons, please. :)
Filthy Fluno: yes
Filthy Fluno: what's that?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: If you put it in the pubic domain, that is giving me permission to sell it
Filthy Fluno: and scarp
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Oh, ok
Alizarin Goldflake: esch, thanks for the cookie!
Scarp Godenot: Having your stuff stolen and having rights of redress is one thing, but if you want real protection you must register your copyright. Then you get damages and lawyers fees. Otherwise only the value if they would have bought something legally.
Scarp Godenot: And you pay the lawyer out of that.
Alizarin Goldflake: registering a copyright is a hassle
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Creative Commons is a licenese that says you can use my stuff but you can't charge for it, at least that is how I remember it.
RAG Randt: controversial subject creative commons
Alanagh Recreant: http://creativecommons.org/license/
Scarp Godenot: Alizarin, it is actually pretty easy now.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: how so? I know very little about it
Alizarin Goldflake: how so?
Alanagh Recreant: /best possible way to protect work in SL imo
Filthy Fluno: thanks for the url alanahg
Scarp Godenot: You can register all the work you did in a year all at once for one fee.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: just I know not to put stuff in the public domain
Sky Hye: And that sounds about the same as a basic copyright situation, implied anyway.
Larkum Woodget: I tried to register copyright once and was told it was automatic ( I'm in Australia) - It's confusing that this differs internationally
Alizarin Goldflake: Scarp, how?
RAG Randt: Lawrence Lessig saysthat creativeity belongs to everybody
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: But with copyright, you have to seek the copyright holder and ask permission
Scarp Godenot: Yeah, sorry, I'm talking US law here.
RAG Randt: Lesssig is creative commons
Filthy Fluno: scarp.. are you an attorney? don't hit me
Alizarin Goldflake: yes i thought it was automatic too if you put (c)
Sky Hye: And how enforcible is creative commons?
Cienega Soon: lol
RAG Randt: not enforceable
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I don't know if it has been tested
RAG Randt: not lay
Scarp Godenot: If you want to use music or some piece of anothers work you definitely need permission...
Wayne Bohemia: Same here Alizarin.. can anybosy enlighten us on that?
Sky Hye: What is the point of creative commons?
Wayne Bohemia: *anybody
Warm Cookie whispers: Ahhh, Fresh from the oven. Yumm!!
RAG Randt: creative freedom
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I'd guess so that you give permission for non-commercial use of your work????
Filthy Fluno: sometimes i feel like i'm just tempting fate
RAG Randt: yes ibelieve
Wayne Bohemia: lol
Sky Hye: Doesn't seem significant enought to get involved in.
Larkum Woodget: tempting fate - yes! a proper artist will steal whatever is necessary to fulfil the vision
Scarp Godenot: A photographer can shoot a picture of anything in the US and use it in an 'editorial' context with no permission, but not in an advertising context.
RAG Randt: lessig is pressing for copyright change :((((
Filthy Fluno: larkum.. what does that mean?
Filthy Fluno: lol
Filthy Fluno: why steal
Filthy Fluno: just make
Larkum Woodget: it means we are driven by our need to make an image- and we will risk a lot in the process
Cienega Soon: so a photo of public domain in the open air cannot be used for advertising?
Wayne Bohemia: Exactly Filthy... well said ;)
Scarp Godenot: Like I could use one of Filthy's pictures for a story about him in a magazine without his permission.
Wayne Bohemia: *:)
Filthy Fluno: oh
Alizarin Goldflake: some things i cant make
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: But Filthy, you showed us the guitar that had an image" stolen" from you, you liked it
Alizarin Goldflake: i cant make ragas
Filthy Fluno: yes
Alizarin Goldflake: but i want to put a snip in a sculpture for atmosphere
Alizarin Goldflake: and then sell it
Filthy Fluno: i think if it promotes the artist in a good light
Filthy Fluno: why not
Alizarin Goldflake: but this is no-no?
Filthy Fluno: no harm no foul?
Filthy Fluno: is that too simple?
Filthy Fluno: i mean.. .for us?
Scarp Godenot: Alizarin, I'll bet you can find a SL musician to help you...
Alizarin Goldflake: oh i want Ali Akbar Khan raga
Filthy Fluno: anytime my artwork pops up in a new place and its not messed with.. i'm happy
Filthy Fluno: i guess that's not what this discussionis about
Scarp Godenot: Like anything in the law, you can get away with most things because most people don't sue. If you are willing to take a chance, it is not much of a risk.
Filthy Fluno: but its onthe frindge
Cienega Soon: what about the artists that created our skins as we photograph here in SL and sell these photos as art in RL?
Alanagh Recreant: Creative Commons licenses give you the ability to dictate how others may exercise your copyright rights—such as the right of others to copy your work, make derivative works or adaptations of your work, to distribute your work and/or make money from your work. They do not give you the ability to restrict anything that is otherwise permitted by exceptions or limitations to copyright—including, importantly, fair use or fair dealing—nor do they give you the ability to control anything that is not protected by copyright law, such as facts and ideas. (form the site)
Alizarin Goldflake: well i also dont want to hurt another artist's rights
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: ty!
Larkum Woodget: I had some original drawings of mine stolen once- I spent a lot of time on them- I would not have minded so much if a photo had been taken of them instead
Cienega Soon: we are using other artists work in our photos and not crediting them
Alanagh Recreant: ...and ... The Legal Code is the actual license; a document designed to be enforced in a court of law. ;)
Filthy Fluno: yea.. so who cares if you copyright if the artwork is stolen
Alizarin Goldflake: yes and we havent the resources to prosecute
Sky Hye: So is cc a place, a site, where you can indicate your interest in use of your art?
Larkum Woodget: I think it all depends on whether you can afford a lawyer
Scarp Godenot: A religious group is using one of my commercial photos for their website logo I just found out this week.. But I don't know if I want to bother to sue.... it is so much hassle.
Dharma Voyager: it appears that you are signing your rights to creative commons
Dharma Voyager: and they are leasing them back to you for a limited amount of time
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: no, you publish that your art is released under the CC license
Alanagh Recreant: Sky... CC is a system that you integrate into your (mostly) online work... you gab a license, apply it... and can enforce it.
RAG Randt: unfortunately deep pockets have an advantage
Larkum Woodget: lol - and they will invoke relgious immunity probably
Dharma Voyager: a time smaller than a full copyeight
Sky Hye: And how does the licence get binding? cost?
Wayne Bohemia: Right all sorry to interupt, but.... i gotta go - the misses is online :(
Alanagh Recreant: we apply CC licenses to our articles and proposals even
Larkum Woodget: cu Wayne
Alizarin Goldflake: yes i have to log off too
Wayne Bohemia: Maybee i wills ee you all again some other time :)
Wayne Bohemia: lol
Alizarin Goldflake: thanks for organizing this guys!
Alizarin Goldflake: very valuable
Larkum Woodget: Hi Pathfinder
Filthy Fluno: yw alizarin
Filthy Fluno: Hey path
Alizarin Goldflake: holy - we got a linden!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: hello Pathfinder!
Larkum Woodget: cu Alizarin
Filthy Fluno: we just ending up a n art talk about intel prop and copyright stuff
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: have a seat
Scarp Godenot: Get the net!
Filthy Fluno: kinda free form
Alizarin Goldflake: cu Larkum
Alanagh Recreant: imo CC is ideal for SL
Cienega Soon: bye Wayne
RAG Randt: bye
Filthy Fluno: seeya rag!
RAG Randt: i said bye to larkeum
Filthy Fluno: oh
Larkum Woodget: by Rag
Filthy Fluno: lol
Larkum Woodget: sorry- tuned out
Filthy Fluno: bye larkum
Alizarin Goldflake: wow i never saw an actual linden before
Alanagh Recreant slips out... sorry... will brb if possible
Gracie Kendal: LOl Alizarin
Pathfinder Linden: hi Alizarin
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I'm seeing a lot of confusion about CC, on my part especially. I guess I need to read up on it.
Larkum Woodget: you saw a linden? where?
Alizarin Goldflake: here
Larkum Woodget: oh there's one here!
Larkum Woodget: looky!!! XD
LawnDart Curtiss: you can tell the authenticity of a linden by the hat
Dharma Voyager: hhehe
Pathfinder Linden: quick! someone get a net! lol
Cienega Soon: hello Pathfinder
Gracie Kendal: lol
Cienega Soon: lol
Larkum Woodget: LOL
Sky Hye: If cc is good, and usefull, I want to know about it, but so far, I can't figure out how it would be worth the trouble.
LawnDart Curtiss: i had someone once steal all the artwork in my gallery
Alizarin Goldflake: hey lets all make friends with Pathfinder !! :)))
Dharma Voyager: haha
LawnDart Curtiss: he took snapshots of everything
Alizarin Goldflake: sue!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: It makes sense, AFAIK, if you want to give your stuff away but NOT put it in the public domain.
Larkum Woodget: did he leave the originals behind?
LawnDart Curtiss: put them ona prim
Alizarin Goldflake: k guys
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: What did you do about it Lawn?
Dharma Voyager: oh you mean in sl?
Alizarin Goldflake: luv ya
Alizarin Goldflake: good night
Larkum Woodget: cu Ali
Gracie Kendal: Night Alizarin :))
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: bye!
LawnDart Curtiss: then he put them up all over his house which was right next door to my gallery and invited me over
Cienega Soon: bye Alizarin
Filthy Fluno: hey y'all... i gotta 7 pm meeting i gotta get to
Dharma Voyager: ouch
Filthy Fluno: awesome turnou
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: bye!
Pathfinder Linden: Sky, that is a beautiful seahorse avatar. just wonderful.
Filthy Fluno: i wish i could contribute more to this convo
Larkum Woodget: cu Filthy
Dharma Voyager: technically no texture is safe in sl
Scarp Godenot: Your best bet for protection is to register your copyright on all of your artworks created in a certain period of time. You can photograph them digitally burn them on 2 dvds, fill out a simple form and send a check for 45 dollars with the stuff to the copyright office.
Sky Hye: Thank you -- It's new from Nimbus Rau.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: and what does that get you?
LawnDart Curtiss: this was all sl
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Hello Kronos, welcome!
LawnDart Curtiss: there is nothing you can do in sl
Dharma Voyager: nope
Kronos Kirkorian: Hello
Pathfinder Linden relaxes on the couch
LawnDart Curtiss: i complained to the sim owner and he was banned from the sim
Scarp Godenot: That gets you attorneys fees and punative damages. Which make you able to fight the fight without breaking the bank.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I thought I read you can file a DCMA takedown with Linden Lab
Dharma Voyager: you can complain to pathfinder :)
Dharma Voyager: laughs
Pathfinder Linden: it's ok. i can take it. ;)
Dharma Voyager: it is against the eula?
Filthy Fluno: jus so everyoen knows.. we're going to compile all of our monday night art talkis for the website
LawnDart Curtiss: but he told me he went around to other galleries and undersold that artists the exact same way
Filthy Fluno: artropolitans.com
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: that's awful Lawn! Did you get it stopped?
Filthy Fluno: and wherever else wake wants it
Filthy Fluno: ummm.. do we need permission for that?
Filthy Fluno: seeya!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: ha!
Larkum Woodget: I read somewhere if we are having trouble with a particular avvie stealing our stuff an onselling it - the lindens enforce a takedown order
Dharma Voyager: technically I think that is against the SL user agreement... ?
Cienega Soon: wow that is disapointing
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I saw that in the forums also
Callipygian Christensen: not if its on an external site
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: DCMA is a USA law
LawnDart Curtiss: i posted a notice to the gallery owners group with the guy's name
Callipygian Christensen: although letting peopleknow like this is a courtesy :)
Scarp Godenot: Where there are people, there is crime.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Digital Copyright Millenium ACt
LawnDart Curtiss: it is against the user agreement
Dharma Voyager: nods
LawnDart Curtiss: but who is the mediator
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Linden Lab
Dharma Voyager: but try to get recourse through the SCMA
Dharma Voyager: DCMA
Larkum Woodget: that's one use of fame I suppose- everyone knows if your work has been stolen
Dharma Voyager: yes ou would have to go through linden labs
LawnDart Curtiss: and how is an allegation verified?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I really don't know
Dharma Voyager: start with an abuse report?
Dharma Voyager: help - > abuse report
Larkum Woodget: yes an abuse report
Dharma Voyager: There are also tools that allow you to "watermark" your images
Scarp Godenot: You can copyright snapshots shot in SL just like you can any other art you make.
Dharma Voyager: because the sl client changes the image I'm not sure if it will stay with the image
LawnDart Curtiss: as a gallery owner - i first didnt want it to get out that my gallery was under attack
Dharma Voyager: but I would recommend it
Scarp Godenot: And you can enforce your rights in a real court.
Scarp Godenot: Even though I don't think it has been done yet.
Sky Hye: How do we watermark our images so they aren't damaged, for our sales in sl?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: why not?
Dharma Voyager: well technically watermark
Dharma Voyager: so it is embedded in the image
LawnDart Curtiss: and this guy had all kinds of ppl stopping by his place
Dharma Voyager: but like I said the slclient changes the format on upload
Scarp Godenot: Watermarking is a mixed bag. Visible watermarking destroys the art experience.
Sky Hye: What do you mean embedded? Invisible?
Dharma Voyager: and the image size
Dharma Voyager: converst it to jpeg2000
Dharma Voyager: so I'm not sure
Dharma Voyager: yes digital watermark... can't see it
LawnDart Curtiss: you can put a copyright over the image on its own prim
Dharma Voyager: some people do that on the internet now
Larkum Woodget: so true Scarp
Scarp Godenot: Invisible watermarking can be subverted easily.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Welcome Isolde!
Gracie Kendal: /hiya Isolde :))
Sky Hye: How do you prove that it exists, then?
Larkum Woodget: Hi Isolde
LawnDart Curtiss: but then ppl cant see the real art for what it is
Isolde Flamand: hello everyone
Dharma Voyager: I haven't played with it... but I don't thik it is just a header file change it is in the image
Klaatu Congrejo: As a frequent gallery visitor, and buyer of artworks, I really dislike the watermark idea. It detracts from my appreciation of the art in situ
Dharma Voyager: yes but you can tell if it is a direct copy
Scarp Godenot: If you are a thief you download a pic edit it in photoshop and remove the metadata. Piece of cake.
Dharma Voyager: any texture can be taken in sl
Dharma Voyager: not just a photo
Dharma Voyager: the image
LawnDart Curtiss: thats exactly the point Klaatu
Alanagh Recreant: sorry :)
Scarp Godenot: PHoto and texture are interchangeable terms in SL aren't they?
Dharma Voyager: nods
Dharma Voyager: well no
Cienega Soon: yes
LawnDart Curtiss: i didnt want to first of all interfere with the artists work
Dharma Voyager: Ui believe when someone says they take a photo they are using a camera to copy the image
Scarp Godenot: Aren't they all bitmaps?
LawnDart Curtiss: then i didnt want the artists to get worried thier stuff would get stolen
Dharma Voyager: what I am talking about is intercepting the video feed to take a full copy of the texture
Klaatu Congrejo: Hmm, I see yr point LawnDart. Tricky problem.
Dharma Voyager: sl is basically an honnor system
Scarp Godenot: The whole world is an honor system and surprisingly it works most of the time.
LawnDart Curtiss: LOL OH NO DHARMA - we are all screwed!!!
Cienega Soon: lol
Dharma Voyager: yes but with digital you can get the "original"
Larkum Woodget: We know we're going to get a certain percentage of our stuff stolen
Gracie Kendal: lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: THere is enough $ exchanged that some dishonorable people are bound to be here. :- )
Kronos Kirkorian: only the good stuff
Kronos Kirkorian: ;-)
Cienega Soon: yes but they cant steal my mind
LawnDart Curtiss: its the mentality of the internet i am afraid
Dharma Voyager: that is the difference in a digital medium
Scarp Godenot: Larkum, you are so right, that is just the way it works.
Cienega Soon: i will make more
Dharma Voyager: so that is why people resort to watermarking
Dharma Voyager: and things like that
RAG Randt: it does come down to who infringes
LawnDart Curtiss: i can google image anything and upload it ot sl - its stealing something for use in sl
Scarp Godenot: I have gone over the watermarking debate with myself many times over the years, and finally decided the hell with it.
Callipygian Christensen: great subject, but I have to go.thanks for the info
Larkum Woodget: I did that today- but I changed the image considerably - so I kind of think of it as my own
Dharma Voyager: smiles
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: That's one reason I mostly use my own textures
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: bye Cilli!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Calli...
Dharma Voyager: I kind of wonder
Dharma Voyager: for example
Cienega Soon: Bye Calli
Dharma Voyager: I made this guitar
Larkum Woodget: cu Calli
Dharma Voyager: it is my real guitar
Dharma Voyager: do I owe the makers of the guitar credit
Dharma Voyager: I took a picture of it?
Scarp Godenot: There used to be a myth in the art/advertising worlds that if you changed a work by a certain percentage that that was OK. That is just a myth. Not true.
Cienega Soon: good question Dharma
Dharma Voyager: (waits for lag gods to relaease my guitar
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: wow, yeah.
Dharma Voyager: yes
Cienega Soon: i ahve the same ? about all the avatar skins and clothining
Dharma Voyager: it is a model of a real guitar
Cienega Soon: in my photos
Larkum Woodget: the internet has expanded our vision of the world into a big shared experience
Dharma Voyager: now
Dharma Voyager: here is the twist
Dharma Voyager: I made a piano
Dharma Voyager: completely digital
Dharma Voyager: but I call it a steinway
Dharma Voyager: should I be paying stienway royalties
Larkum Woodget: there's got to be all sorts of exchange- we know if we're overstepping the line I think
Dharma Voyager: ?
Dharma Voyager: seems backwards
RAG Randt: steinway is trademarked name
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I never thought about that...
Dharma Voyager: yes so is the name of my guitar
Alanagh Recreant: http://www.sharingisdaring.org/ - another example of where a CC license was applied irl
Gracie Kendal: isnt that wahy so many products here have changed their names
Alanagh Recreant: related to sharing art and making derivative works
Larkum Woodget: I think they should be glad of the free publicity
Gracie Kendal: uggs, is ughs
Dharma Voyager: but I own the guitar does that make a difference?
Dharma Voyager: I made a model of my best friends guitar... do I need to pay him royalites?
Alanagh Recreant chuckles... I dont work for Creative Commons
Dharma Voyager: hahhaha
RAG Randt: are youselling the model
Dharma Voyager: nods... well I'm selling a used guitar
Dharma Voyager: hahahhahah
Scarp Godenot: Dharma; images of SL objects is an issue that hasn't been fought in the courts yet. In RL an object that is unique has publicity rights, but a manufactured object doesn't.
Dharma Voyager: it is well worn vingate model
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: grayer and grayer, cool!
RAG Randt: grey
RAG Randt: or gray?
Sky Hye: crashed
Scarp Godenot: All the law is gray..... in more ways than one..... zzzzzzzzz!
Scarp Godenot: Grey for the Brits
Larkum Woodget: lol scarp
Dharma Voyager: tha one has puzzled me
RAG Randt: the best thing for us to do is get a good copyright attorney to give a heads up
RAG Randt: we can barter a trade
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: yeah, that is the only way to be sure
RAG Randt: info for art
Scarp Godenot: I don't think that the stakes in SL are high enough for lawsuits for most of what we do here.
Kronos Kirkorian: /I shoot movies in SL, so am I stealing all those textures, avatars, builds?
Larkum Woodget: good point Scarp
Dharma Voyager: I think the lindens thought ahead when limiting wav files to 10 seconds
Kronos Kirkorian: /it wouldn't be possible to get a release from every source
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I recently had to do JUST that!
Dharma Voyager: streaming music places the liability on the streamer
Larkum Woodget: very true Kronos!
Cienega Soon: my question exactly Kronos
Scarp Godenot: Kronos, in RL you would need property releases for the unique structures, but no the public places.
Scarp Godenot: Is there something in the SL contract that talks about this?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I'm the coauthor of the 2nd edition of the Wiliy Book, Official Guide to SL. (Chatper 3)
Dharma Voyager: cool
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Getting signed permmisons was a HUGE hassle
Kronos Kirkorian: it depends on weather it is featued or background
Scarp Godenot: What were the permissions for Please?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Basically I asked about 100 people and got 20 or so sigs
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Screenshots taken in SL
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (and call me Wake, it is easier)
Scarp Godenot: For their image rights. In RL those are called publicity rights.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Curiosuly, Wiley wanted permissino of the land owner
Scarp Godenot: This is untapped law I think.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: not the avator or texture creator, but I'm not certain that they understood the difference.
Dharma Voyager: technically I believe that once you place anything in SL the lindens ultimately hold the rights
Dharma Voyager: I have to re read the agreement
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I think you are right Scarp,
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: it may have been a CYA type of thing.
Kronos Kirkorian: I think they could claim those rights if they chose to do so
Scarp Godenot: If you are doing an editorial guide in RL about a place, you don't need permissions to report about things.
LawnDart Curtiss: is that true Dhrma?
Scarp Godenot: I would think that would apply in your case.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I just did what the publisher insisted on, ton of extra work.
Dharma Voyager: I believe so
Dharma Voyager: it would protect them
Scarp Godenot: Publishers are a bit paranoid in my experience.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: exactly, CYA
Dharma Voyager: they can use any image they want
LawnDart Curtiss: but there is a specific clause Scarp that all reporters must have permission to report on sl
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: third time's the charm Sky!
Dharma Voyager: take any pictures they want with no permission I believe
Sky Hye: Maybe. :P
Larkum Woodget: Just because you're not paranoid don't mean they aint after you
Dharma Voyager: they being the lindens
Scarp Godenot: LawnDart, is that specific clause in the SL contract?
LawnDart Curtiss: yes - i berlieve it is
Scarp Godenot: Ha ha Dharma
Larkum Woodget: I think the contact is still being drawn up- that's why all this is so interesting
Dharma Voyager: me not parranoid just hedlp backward engineer some of the sl client
LawnDart Curtiss: and further - reporters must wear a reporter tag
Dharma Voyager: hehheheh
Dharma Voyager: technology is fun
Dharma Voyager: hehehhe
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: even bloggers????
LawnDart Curtiss: not blogs
Larkum Woodget: LOL @ Dharma
LawnDart Curtiss: i dont think
Dharma Voyager: brb
Cienega Soon: like this?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: shoot, I am so in trouble...
LawnDart Curtiss: most of it is to protect the privacy of the ppl on sl
LawnDart Curtiss: but i think a lot of it is for damage control for linden
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I wonder if that is good enough Cienega
Scarp Godenot: I think that for legal purposes SL might constitute a "Public Space'. And that means that editorial reporting needs no permissions, but then again we are in a bunch of servers owned by a company.
Dharma Voyager: yes it is proiuvate space
Dharma Voyager: private
Dharma Voyager: owned by the lindens
LawnDart Curtiss: yep
Larkum Woodget: If your privacy really needs protecting then you've obviously got something to hide
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: not true!!!!!!
Dharma Voyager: ohhhhhh...... that's wrong
Dharma Voyager: hahahhah
Scarp Godenot: But a public space is defined by who can be there. You can have a private mall that is still considered a public space.
LawnDart Curtiss: show us yout inventory Larkum
Dharma Voyager: lawfully this is not a public space like in RL
Dharma Voyager: oh please don't
Dharma Voyager: hahhahahahah
Larkum Woodget: I've got all sorts of juicy stuff in my inverntory LOL
Scarp Godenot: LawnDArt: good one!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: lots of great art!
Scarp Godenot: What about your penis collection? ha ha
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (FYI, Larkum was my 1st ever customer)
LawnDart Curtiss: i hate the arguement that unless u are doing something wrong you dont need to worry about privacy
Larkum Woodget: yes! I've got some of of the best art SL artists (including Wake) have produced so far XD
Sky Hye: Larkum has great taste!
Dharma Voyager: yes the american forfathers are rolling on that one
LawnDart Curtiss: yeah
Larkum Woodget: it's true- it's no fun having sex when you think someone might be watching
Scarp Godenot: Or everyone in the vicinity.... heh
LawnDart Curtiss: on the other hand - there are ppl that are doing wrong things
Larkum Woodget: unless you're kinky for it
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Ok folks, this is your host speaking. Time is up but please, stay and talk all night. I have the room booked. :-) But...
LawnDart Curtiss: lol - i dont mind an audience - as long as i know who they are!
Dharma Voyager: TMI TMI TMI
Kronos Kirkorian: there is no real private spaces in SL, I can insert my camera into any space
Dharma Voyager: hahhahahah
LawnDart Curtiss: not the pervs in the justice dept
Larkum Woodget: LOl
Cienega Soon: lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Next week, we are having a rez and and crituque session. Isolde Flamand and Filthy Fluno will be out artist, and Isolde is here now. Hi Isolde!
Isolde Flamand waves
Isolde Flamand: hello
Scarp Godenot: An interesting thing here is that you can take pictures of someone's avatar without anyone knowing about it.
Larkum Woodget: can we have a little preview?
Dharma Voyager: movies too no?
Kronos Kirkorian: yes, Ive done it toushands of times
Scarp Godenot: Even if they are in their house.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: So please, jon us all next week at th esame time. I gotta run. Take care all!
Dharma Voyager: thanks for the talk
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: YW
Isolde Flamand: thanks for letting me listen in--I'm being called away now
LawnDart Curtiss: yeah and you can cam endlessly across sims to do it
Sky Hye: Thanks for another great meet up, Wake.
Scarp Godenot: Yeah good topic.
Larkum Woodget: If they've reverse engeneered the client they can steal your shape- your skin- your attachments
Larkum Woodget: everything
Dharma Voyager: yup
Dharma Voyager: actually
LawnDart Curtiss: yes - thank you Please
Kronos Kirkorian: even if you cant get into the sim you can send your camera in
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: they can't steal scripts...
Dharma Voyager: the lindens have released an open source
Dharma Voyager: versioin of their calls
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: You guys are great, g'night all!
Dharma Voyager: it is being used in a lot of real good technology projects
Sky Hye: Good night Wake
Dharma Voyager: the sl client code has been released
Dharma Voyager: in open source
Scarp Godenot: LL and IBM are trying now to work on internet standards that will allow you to have all the rights to your avatar to move from one virtual world to another. These issues will end up in court someday.
Sky Hye: I'm taking off too, bye all. :)
Dharma Voyager: already