Art Talk - What is Art, Part II: Meaning vs Appearance

Host: PleaseWakeMeUp Idler

February 18, 2008

You: Welcome to Art Talk, the weekly discussion group that I loosely host here You: Tonight's topic is part II of the 4 week what is art series You: Today we'll be discussing Meaning vs Appearance Anton Braendle: (Uh-oh!) You: Some art has "deep meaning" some is beautiful You: yeah, you'll love this one Anton CC Checchinato: il faut être aveant d'aparaître You: Over on the stage you'll see 2 of my pieces Anton Braendle: *grin You: One is awfully pretty and has sold pretty well also Filthy Fluno: please CC.. we will eat cheese later You: The other is, well, I guess a concept piece You: If you click the i you'll get the notecard but basically it is an anti-war piece Cutter Randt: which is the pretty one? You: to "get" it, you must die. Leave SL, and I'll give it to your heirs Filthy Fluno: yo manx Chatto Tomsen: Hi Manx Manx Wharton: oh gawd, the whole mob is here You: So, one piece has meaning, Chatto Tomsen: lol cutter You: one piece is pretty Manx Wharton: hey Filthy Fluno: wel wake Chatto Tomsen: Hi Ludo Pi Pooraka: hi ludo You: Is one better, worse, more important? You: Discuss.... Filthy Fluno: i'm not so sure either is pretty You: ha!!! Filthy Fluno: i think you can have both Filthy Fluno: or neither Sky Hye: I want both Filthy Fluno: and still have great art Ludo Merit: Hi, folks You: neither? Filthy Fluno: yes You: hi Ludo, have a seat Filthy Fluno: nice ludo Chatto Tomsen: are you really an eschatologist Ludo? Sky Hye: That barrel could be more sublime, I suppose, but it should not be excatly pretty, for purposes of statement. Anton Braendle: I agree ...it's a false distinction to say you must have one or the either ... Anton Braendle: In that sense it's a spectrum of possibilities Ludo Merit: Eschatologist? You: I chose these two to represent the extremes Chatto Tomsen: and end of the worlder Chatto Tomsen: an Manx Wharton: hey cutter, mind if I take this seat? Ludo Merit: No, just an end of Oyster bayer Chatto Tomsen: ah Cutter Randt: go right a head Manx... Manx Wharton: great av, btw You: Is one form more "Legittmate" than the other? Anton Braendle: But are they really extremes, other than in your concept? You: Is "legitimate" even a good word to use Manx Wharton: you and I are going to look like a fireside chat You: The barrel is pretty ugly Manx Wharton: :D Cutter Randt: lol You: meant to be Filthy Fluno: i don't think its ugly Anton Braendle shrugs ... it's a freaking barrel ... Sky Hye: A barrel could be made visually more compelling, thus beautiful, and still convey your message. Filthy Fluno: i think its handsome Anton Braendle: It looks purposeful. Pi Pooraka: ugly in what sense? You: Look closely, you'll see graves on the barrel, mosques, soldires with guns You: Ugly in that I don't want it in my living room Sky Hye: One needn't remove beauty to make a difficult message. Anton Braendle: Surface treatment ... Cutter Randt: its a challenge to make an ugly thing in sSL....atleast something that reminds of the ugliness in RL ... Sky Hye: Althought beauty is not required Anton Braendle: Not an inherently "barrel" characteristic ... Anton Braendle: You have transformed its' "barrelness" ... Manx Wharton: it is true that sl can be a bit hygenic Filthy Fluno: good point manx Anton Braendle: MAnx, can you explain that? You: So sky, a difficult message can be beautiful then? Manx Wharton: but man, if you look at some of the adverts, that will not last. You: Aren't difficult things, well, difficult? Sky Hye: It can, but it must be carefully composed for that to work. CC Checchinato: I don't understand what you're saying. Perhaps I'm not hearing you correctly. Or perhaps I'm hearing you correctly but don't understand the words you're using. Manx Wharton: there's an element of, well, debris, that's not as prevalent in most of sl. You: Who's the question to CC? You: Welcome Scarp! Filthy Fluno: yo yo scarp Scarp Godenot: Hi there folks! CC Checchinato: sorry, I'm trying to follow and I seem a little lost in the stream Chatto Tomsen: Hi Scarp Manx Wharton: hola scarp You: there are a lot of good debris places in SL, just not common Anton Braendle: Bienvenue, Escarpe ... Manx Wharton: right Ludo Merit: Hobo jungle? Filthy Fluno: yea... the question here is getting lost i think Filthy Fluno: let's back up no? You: Midian, Toxia, Neuxs Prime (but that seems gone now) Manx Wharton: what's hobo jungle? CC Checchinato: i..e what is a debris place? Anton Braendle: Yes, do back up ... we got off track very quickly. You: back up to where? Cutter Randt: beep beep beep You: I guess we would all agree that ugly doesn't imply meaning Anton Braendle: Restate the question and its' context ... ? Scarp Godenot: The Dump is an art sim. Ludo Merit: Please, I came late You: but I'm wondering if difficult meaning implies ugly CC Checchinato: I,m ugly Anton Braendle: No ... difficult does not link with ugly ... Manx Wharton: The Dump...duly noted. Anton Braendle: "Ugly" is a value judgement ... Filthy Fluno: why would you think that Wake? Sky Hye: Many feel that ugly must, if fact, be correlated to difficult. I disagree. Scarp Godenot: Beauty implies non beauty. And both are 'beauty' in the art sense. Chatto Tomsen: does ugly equate with uncomfortable? You: That' exactly what I'm wondering, anton, does it? Anton Braendle: "Difficult" implies a conceptual machination Filthy Fluno: Ugly can be very very important You: IT does here, but that doesn't, obviously, imply it everywhere Anton Braendle: Why here? Is that your intent? Anton Braendle: DO you want the barrle to be "ugly" Manx Wharton: not even sure that ugly qualifies as a value judgment. it's more vapid text, like 'nice' You: Yes, that was my intent of that piece, to make you think and for it to be ugly Scarp Godenot: Ugly is a form of beauty. Ludo Merit: Seems to me ugly can be meaningless, and when it is meaningless and calls itself art, I get annoyed. Anton Braendle: Uh, no ... not really vapid ...just no in common usage so much. Ludo Merit: I read the note and intend to kill a friend to get the piece. You: I agree Ludo, unless it is so ugly it is attractive, compelling. Scarp Godenot: Anti beauty is a statement/. Cutter Randt: rather than contrasting "ugly" and "beatuy", in tthe context of "what is art" I think we should contrast "concerned" and "unconcrned" or something like that Manx Wharton: right, so common as to be without intent. CC Checchinato: it is futile to discuss beauty and ugliness because of the subjectivity that it implies, there is no common criteria Ludo Merit: What is the question? Anton Braendle: Well-stated CC ... You: Yes, anton, I do want the barrel to be ugly, so that you think about what the notecard says, not just say "oooo, pretty" CC Checchinato: thnx Chatto Tomsen: there are broad common criteria Anton Braendle: LOL ...sorry ...but that was too obvious to me ... Filthy Fluno: its not ugly.. and i say its not pretty either Chatto Tomsen: we have evolved to find the natural environment beautiful for example You: But CC, in one culture, certain norms do stand out. toxic waste dump, ugly, sunrise, pretty. Anton Braendle: Exactly, Filthy. Filthy Fluno: those words hardly ever come into my mouth Filthy Fluno: with art CC Checchinato: but we seam to wnder in to th e obvious Manx Wharton: what is this barrel thing, anyway. Anton Braendle: Did you read the notecard, Manx? Scarp Godenot: Pointing out beauty or ugliness is an artistic statement by the artist of meaning. Manx Wharton: oh hang ong You: (Manx, click the i next to the barrel for an explanation) Cutter Randt: pleae...but a painting of a toxic watesdump (or sim of a dump) could be beautiiufl... You: indeed? Filthy Fluno: indeed as well Anton Braendle: (If you have to point it out, you've failed in your mission!) Chatto Tomsen: yes it could You: I have a clipped piece of paper, forgot the artist, an oil painting of a steel mill, wonderful Manx Wharton: didn't know we had source materials for tonight! haha Filthy Fluno: anton Ludo Merit: I still don't know what the question is, but I don't judge art by beauty or ugly, I judge it by whether I love it, hate it, or am indifferent. If I either love or hate it it is probably art. Anton Braendle: YOu have Life, you have source material, Manx. Anton Braendle: Yes? Filthy Fluno: are you saying if you have to click on it for more info, you've failed? Chatto Tomsen: and human made things are all natural anyway since we are the product of nature Scarp Godenot: Making ugly beautiful by showing it as beauty is what I do in my art. Anton Braendle: No ... I"m saying , in response to Scarp's earlier comment ... Manx Wharton: indeed Chatto Tomsen: ugliness must imply unhealthy somehow Filthy Fluno: oh sorry Anton Braendle: I have no prob with clicking on an onject to learn more about it ... CC Checchinato: meaning... it's a direction, like a vector of energy, of possibilities... I,m not sure how the romantic debate on beauty is pertinent Anton Braendle: and around here, you have to ... Filthy Fluno: k Filthy Fluno: sorry You: Gotta check out your stuff then Scarp, I'll probably like it. What you do, it sounds like is focus our attention, that is good Filthy Fluno: i hear y Anton Braendle: Game mentality Filthy Fluno: i missed the other comment Cutter Randt: ludo....I agree...the criteria of ugly/pretty is unclear...rather art either has an impact on teh viewer or not (or somewhere in between) Filthy Fluno: well said cutter Scarp Godenot: As I understand tonights discussion it is about "Is beauty or meaning more important in art"? Right? Chatto Tomsen: I don't think we can dismiss the beautiful/ugly dichotomy as product of the romantics Ludo Merit: Finally, I hear the question. Kolor Fall: rather beauty ... i think does the art inspire me in some way CC Checchinato: context is essential to beauty and meaning Anton Braendle: Err ... was that in fact the question? You: CC, I guess that's where I'm trying to head. For a "meaningful" piece to be sucessful, can it be beautiful. (Note, I don't claim to have any answers on this.) Manx Wharton: really, didn't shelley take care of this one for us? Ludo Merit: ? Cutter Randt: manx...what did Shelly say? Anton Braendle: SHelly or Shelley? Manx Wharton: 'beauty is truth, truth beauty, etc etc' Filthy Fluno: who's Smelly? Manx Wharton: lol Anton Braendle: That would be Shelley ... Ludo Merit laughs. Cutter Randt: hehe Chatto Tomsen: beauty has nothing to do with truth You: Man if you quote poetry you'll make Sherpa wish she was here... Chatto Tomsen: ugly is just as truthful and real Anton Braendle: Are you so sure about that Chatto? CC Checchinato: it's a romantic idea...beauty! Manx Wharton: oh I'm thinking of it as truth being meaning in this context. CC Checchinato: Shelley Scarp Godenot: Einstein thought that beauty and truth were identical. You: is ugly MORE truthful? Manx Wharton: it might have been byron Filthy Fluno: i say ugly is more truthful Anton Braendle: Both are truthful ... Filthy Fluno: look at my face Chatto Tomsen: einstein was a physicist not a philospher Anton Braendle: (It was Shelley) Ludo Merit: We all seem to know what beauty is, though we may not agree on a particular instance, ditto ugly. You: mathematical truth is beautiful, that is very true Cutter Randt looks at Filthy's face. Anton Braendle: So what? Einstein was also a philospher ... Ludo Merit: But where do we get the impulse to appreciate beauty. Sky Hye: I like to think that beauty, carefully chosen, is a tool that can lure the viewer to see the ugly. Chatto Tomsen: he was wizard who got asked all sorts of questions Cutter Randt: chatto...is ther a difference between a physicits and a philospher? You: Sky, that's great!!! Filthy Fluno: einstein would NEVER have considered himself a philosopher Manx Wharton: my bad. keats! Scarp Godenot: Both ugly and beautiful are the opposite of "boring" in an artistic sense I think. Manx Wharton: http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~keith/poems/urn.html You: I'd love to see an example of that, that would make me happy. Kolor Fall: if mathematics is art, what is matematically beautiful ? Anton Braendle: (Actually, yes htere is a difference between the two) Sky Hye: Rembrandt, Goya Filthy Fluno: goya Ludo Merit: fractals? Anton Braendle: Who says math is art? Filthy Fluno: yucky fractals Scarp Godenot: Kolor: symmetry simplicity. Manx Wharton: not that I even buy his line. You: math isn't art, sorry, just that math is intellectuelly beautiful CC Checchinato: symetry is insanity Anton Braendle: Agreed. Kolor Fall: symmerty is a fundamental of mathematically beautiful Anton Braendle: Symmetry is symmetry...that's all. Scarp Godenot: Symmetry is the basis of all beauty. Manx Wharton: hm. Kolor Fall: i disagree mathematics ... symbols are art Anton Braendle: IS it, Kolor? Filthy Fluno: isn't all math symmetry? Anton Braendle: Why? You: I'm confess my ignorance sky, how did they make difficult works also be beautiful? Scarp Godenot: Filthy, there is lots of messy math. Manx Wharton: there's a lot of messy math out there. Filthy Fluno: oh Manx Wharton: ha! good one scarp! Filthy Fluno: ok Scarp Godenot: Manx we are twins! Ludo Merit: Degrees of infinity make my head swim. It may be symmetry bu it sure is confusing. Sky Hye: It can be in the compositional elements. Manx Wharton: fractional dimensions, discrete topography,etc Kolor Fall: I think Rothko's color fields are math ... and they are simple ... and are art Sky Hye: Darks, lush, dangerous colors and strokes, the very subject can be beautifully handeled and yet very ugly Anton Braendle: Kolor ...explain why that is? Filthy Fluno: yes Ludo Merit: Where can I see Rothko? Scarp Godenot: Symmetry isn't just two sides of a coin it is other things. Like the 'rule of thirds' in design. Filthy Fluno: let kolor explain please You: did they try to make the viewer think about difficult subjects, like war or poverty or death? Kolor Fall: Mark Rothki ... he's a NY painter in the 50's Cutter Randt: uhggh! it gets so frustrating to be stuck in all these silo's left over from the greeks or romantics or whatever european got it wrong...art, math, philosophy, music, theatre, engineering....ugh...it's not helpful anymore, if it ever was... Sky Hye: Symmetry actually is not quite what makes beauty in visual art... Ludo Merit: Tks Kolor Fall: he did those blocks ... fairly large ... Sky Hye: Shall I explain, then? Chatto Tomsen: we need to get rigorous Manx Wharton: ludo, start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rothko Anton Braendle: More Rigor! Kolor Fall: Agreed Chatto Ludo Merit: Tks Chatto Tomsen: yeah! XD You: please? (Note from the host, I like confusing multi-threaded conversations and yes, it is hard to keep up) Manx Wharton: rothko rocks it. Filthy Fluno: meh to rothko Filthy Fluno: don't hurt me Pi Pooraka: rothko needs to be seen in person to apreciate the color fields Anton Braendle: Rothko is best served in person ... Filthy Fluno: true true Filthy Fluno: i take my "meh" back Anton Braendle: I recommend the Rothko Chapel in HOuston ... You: yes, something doesn't come across on the wiki page! Scarp Godenot: Rothko is more about color subtlety than any mathematical thing. Filthy Fluno: but... there's something to say about art that can transcend its original media Anton Braendle: That's being gracious about WIki, WakeMe ... *grin CC Checchinato: rothko is site specific Anton Braendle: No ...not site specific ... Chatto Tomsen: Rothko is good - but it worries me that he seems to be turning into a religion Anton Braendle: NOt at all! Anton Braendle: Just big and requires a large space to be seen Anton Braendle: Pfeh! Anton Braendle: HAve you SEEN a Rothko in the flesh? Kolor Fall: i think your right Scarp ... though "blocks" are fundamentally mathematical (i.e. Rothko has a lot of simple objects) Chatto Tomsen: yes CC Checchinato: leave religion to the art critics Sky Hye: How does this Rothko tangent relate, please? Scarp Godenot: Anton, you should tell us who you are responding to. Manx Wharton: totally. like morris lewis Anton Braendle: Meaning and Intent? You: I don't know, it stems from the "Math" track CC Checchinato: intent...! Filthy Fluno: yea Sky Sky Hye: Rothko and math? Huh? CC Checchinato: that's interesting Kolor Fall: lol ... sorry ... i fragmented into math Filthy Fluno: we're just getting side tracked and side tracked here Cutter Randt: who brought up "intent"....that wasn't in the orignal question.... CC Checchinato: intent You: I don't see math and rothko either, but I just saw him now for the first time Anton Braendle: Actually it was in the very first iteration of the question ... Ludo Merit: Back to meaning. It has been said that the meaning is supplied by the viewer. Filthy Fluno: but maybe its because the original questions are not holding up here and we are reinventing them Scarp Godenot: So, does art need meaning apart from beauty to be great? You: I'm cool with that BTW, let the conversation flow Anton Braendle: I think Filthy is right ...the original question kind of fell apart quickly You: We startedon Beauty and Ugly and Meaning Cutter Randt: anton? really? Imissed that....was totally prepared to jump on the first person to say "inent" You: lets go back then, that's also ok Anton Braendle: Wasn't the term "Appearance"? Cutter Randt: "intent" CC Checchinato: duchamp talked about intent, and the cooeficient of art is the distance between ehat is intended by the artist and what is percieved by the viewer. ther is a distance.. Kolor Fall: ya ... i don't think the words ugly or beauty are fundamentally exact enough to discuss Scarp Godenot: Like I said, does art need meaning apart from beauty to be great? Or does it need a message? Manx Wharton: art needs absolutely no purpose but to exist. T or F? CC Checchinato: f You: Sky was talking about Rembrant and Goya, how they could be beautiful and relate to meaningful topics Cutter Randt: F Sky Hye: F? Anton Braendle: Scarp that implaies that "Beauty=Meaning" Anton Braendle: *implies You: nice one Manx! Manx Wharton: hmmm. we appear to have some formalists in the mix tonight! Filthy Fluno: T and F You: T? Ludo Merit: It could be argued that if people value it and remember it and put it in a museum it is art.] Sky Hye: F and T? Filthy Fluno: no Filthy Fluno: T and F Scarp Godenot: Anton, well beauty can have meaning but does not equal meaning. Manx Wharton: FT? FFFFT? Sky Hye: TTTTTTTFFFFFFFFFFF? Chatto Tomsen: agree+Ludo- history makes art Manx Wharton: heh Kolor Fall: well ... i hate the "dirt" art in some of the galleries ... i classify that no ugly but crappy Manx Wharton: well history validates it. Cutter Randt: lol chatto...was that a math equation? Ludo Merit: So it must not only exist but also make an impact that last for generations. Chatto Tomsen: XD Manx Wharton: correctly or not. You: wow scarp, that'l almost othe opposite of what I would write, that ugly can have meaning but ugly doesn't equal meaning CC Checchinato: good taste (beauty ) is an enemy of the creative proscess, it is the standards which solidify a specific art form into a commodity Sky Hye: Ugly can mean a failure to communicate the intent. Scarp Godenot: Beauty and ugly are the same concept from an art perspective.... speaking philosophically. Sky Hye: But not necessarily Filthy Fluno: i think thats unsuccessful CC Checchinato: the creative process is always bizarre Filthy Fluno: not ugly Ludo Merit: I think beauty is more than just cultural norms. You: Nice bit CC, that alos explains why my sunrise sells so well Cutter Randt: cc...thanks for calling it out....so-called "beauty" is merely "taste" You: or maybe lack of taste? Chatto Tomsen: omg- lets' not start on the creative process - sheesh CC Checchinato: i'm not against selling Anton Braendle: Beauty is merely taste? CC Checchinato: you gotta eat Pi Pooraka: since when does beauty = tasts? Scarp Godenot: Whatever we create, even if is meant to show emptiness and despair... is that beauty? CC Checchinato: but paint by numbers... You: yes, scarp, I think so Kolor Fall: as a "function" i think some people want to buy "beatiful" art ... and others like "ugly" art (function of the form) Ludo Merit: Point at an instance, Scarp Sky Hye: Only if it succeeds, Scarp. Anton Braendle: Examples, please! Filthy Fluno: ok.. who here can show us a piece of "ugly" art You: the oil barrel... Filthy Fluno: and don't you dare whip out one of my drawings CC Checchinato: since the established art world dictates taste and commodifies beauty Manx Wharton: /snicker Chatto Tomsen: I think Wake was telling us about the ugly barrel Filthy Fluno: ok Anton Braendle: Dang ...that was gonna be my first example! Cutter Randt: Poorak...yes...I think so...beauty is merely a preference You: yes, that is ugly and I'd like to think of it as meaningful art, but that may be presumptuous of me Filthy Fluno: thanks anton Manx Wharton: /shuffling for a link to filthy's site Kolor Fall: can someone link the "ugly barrel" ? Chatto Tomsen: merely- a prefence Filthy Fluno: sniff sniff Sky Hye: Perhaps the barrel is not ugly. Scarp Godenot: I have seen shows trying to show all types of negative emotions and outrages, I wouldn't descrbe the physical part of the shows as beautiful. Sky Hye: Maybe it's just plain. Anton Braendle: Doesn't mean I don't like, Filth Chatto Tomsen: these little preferences of beauty and ugly have evolved us through sexual selection to what we are today Ludo Merit: The barrel is not as ugly as its meaning. It's just ordinary until I read the note. Filthy Fluno: :) You: Kolor, the ugly barrel is this room, on the stage CC Checchinato: freudian Kolor Fall: chatto ... your right ... and u can't knock a million years of sex Filthy Fluno: maybe if there was like baby arms floating in bloody vomit overflowing and bubbling over the barrel Chatto Tomsen: nope Filthy Fluno: then i may think its ugly You: oh man.... that is double ugly Anton Braendle: Ugly? Or just revolting? You: yeah, better word Manx Wharton: the barrel is merely a vehicle so to speak. sensory input has almost no relation. Chatto Tomsen: ugly implies unhealthy and detrimental Anton Braendle: "Piss/Christ" ...ugly or just contrived? CC Checchinato: do any of you find me beautiful? Filthy Fluno: stupid Filthy Fluno: and contrived You: contrived Kolor Fall: lol ...i like industrial art a lot ... my problemis the rust mark onthe floor is "ugly" Chatto Tomsen: you are blue- it looks like death Filthy Fluno: but important Sky Hye: Maybe even a little evil Cutter Randt checks out CC. Sky Hye: If it's ugly, which the barrel isn't Ludo Merit: THat's a great nose! Manx Wharton: piss christ is a pretty cheap shot for a review. Anton Braendle: Richard Serra, "Vortex" You: I do like your skin... :- ) Anton Braendle: Ugly or just rusty? CC Checchinato: lolo You: could get out in the salt air more, put some color on you Chatto Tomsen: piss christ is ugly because piss is undesirable waste Anton Braendle: "La Gioconda" ... ugly or just badly varnished? Pi Pooraka: ah - meaning Sky Hye: putrid is ugly Manx Wharton: BWAAA HAAA HAAA Scarp Godenot: Hmmm, I think art has two manifestations: 1) 'Beauty' and that includes anti-beauty (or ugly) and 2) Meaning, and that includes the concept of anti meaning as well. All art is one, the other or as most art a combination of the two things. Kolor Fall: piss is bad taste ... pun intended You: did the piss/christ creator ever achieve any sucess with other works after that? CC Checchinato: ho about the sublime... now ther's an uglybeautiful Sky Hye: But the barrel is not ugly You: Nicely said Scarp Sky Hye: It is also not beautiful Filthy Fluno: yes Filthy Fluno: that's maplethorp right? Chatto Tomsen: I think the barrel is ugly Sky Hye: It is mundane Anton Braendle: It is very very barrel. You: Just ordinary Sky? (to quote someone in this room) Kolor Fall: i'd agree with that Scarp Anton Braendle: No, not Mapplethorp ... Sky Hye: Yep Chatto Tomsen: It represents an environmental threat Anton Braendle: (Trying to remeber) Cutter Randt: please .... you question raises a good point about contemporary art...a successful art piece is judged bbased on teh career of the artist.... Manx Wharton: serrano Anton Braendle: Andres ... Serrano CC Checchinato: you can't keep on the trying to determine theses essentially subjective states. I have found somethings ugly and then later beautifull, these are not fixed ideas Pi Pooraka: where we talking about contemporary art? Filthy Fluno: that is very very good call Cutter Filthy Fluno: but totally three weeks worth of art talk Ludo Merit: In SL, which is the only place where I can afford art, I judge art on a price/per/punch basis. If it costa a lot it has to really send me. Scarp Godenot: CC nobody say these things and concepts are fixed... Cutter Randt: Poorake....the piss/jesus iscontemporary You: (writing down the topic...) Chatto Tomsen: art objects can change from beautiful to ugly because art is often far removed from the "world" Scarp Godenot: I think that good art vs bad art always comes down to the judgement of each individual viewer. Anton Braendle: Aha! Ludo Merit: Pish tosh. If it is not relevant to me it is not art to me. Filthy Fluno: did everybody see that Artnews has second life on the cover this month? Anton Braendle: "Judgement at Artropolis" You: yeah, wonder what will come of that Filthy Chatto Tomsen: wow Scarp Godenot: ARt news, Filthy. What is the SL topic> Ludo Merit: What's ArtNews? Anton Braendle: (Finds it disturbing that they featured SL on the cover) You: ha Anton! Scarp Godenot: I only read Juxtapoz...... heh heh Filthy Fluno: yea.. i wanted that cover Filthy Fluno: dammit Filthy Fluno: oy vey scarp Filthy Fluno: i mean... ludo Anton Braendle: NExt month Filthy ... next month Ludo Merit: I'm an art ignoramus. Sky Hye: All are welcome, even ignoramuses Filthy Fluno: its ok ludo... still love ya Ludo Merit: Yep, I feel right at home. You: hey, the host is ignorant, that should count for something! Scarp Godenot: ha ha Please Anton Braendle: Ignorant or innocent? Anton Braendle: NAivete has its charm You: maybe both You: hello ginny, have a seat Scarp Godenot: So, what is ARt news saying about SL? anybody got the inside story? Chatto Tomsen: Hi Ginny Anton Braendle: And a slice of pizza Sky Hye: My sister is joining us. Sky Hye: She is 3 days old. You: cool! Hi sister! Sky Hye: Meet my rl sister, Ginny Slice of Pizza whispers: Yummy, Good Pizza! Anton Braendle: Hello, GInny .. .welcome to SL ... Ginny Tedeschi: hi all Sky Hye: If you want ot sit, there is a spot on the couch Pi Pooraka: hi ginny - welcome Ginny Tedeschi: oh, thanks Sky Hye: Her connection is slow, so she's still rezzing Sky Hye: Sit next to Kolor You: We understand, don't wory Sky Hye: Oops, thans taken Cutter Randt: hi Ginny You: need more chairs... :- ) Esch????? Filthy Fluno: i gotta run y'all Filthy Fluno: sorry!! Anton Braendle: ""Performance art, gallery openings, Dumpster-diving for junk to turn into art—all of it is happening in an online world populated by computer-generated beings called avatars Filthy Fluno: somthing important just came up!! Scarp Godenot: Is the art news thing top secret 'n stuff? Manx Wharton: I'm going to have to hit it soon too You: over here Ginny, made a chair for you. Kolor Fall: it's out You: thank you manx Manx Wharton: fell off for a min Pi Pooraka: take care filthy Anton Braendle: Seeya Filth ...take care! Cutter Randt: c ya Filthy Kolor Fall: early copies were availabe 2 weeks ago Scarp Godenot: What does it say Kolor? You: It is early, but has the topic died? Sky Hye: There's a chair Filthy Fluno: see you ugly bastards later Chatto Tomsen: cu Filthy Scarp Godenot: Ugggggly! Filthy Fluno: i mean.. bequtiful avatars Sky Hye: Next to PleaseWakeMeUp Scarp Godenot: bya Filthy! Ludo Merit: Ain't no bastard, am a bitch. Kolor Fall: goes in depth on how virtual reality is changing dynamics in the art world ... did lean a bit on the generated stuff which i think is crap btw Manx Wharton: cya Filth! Manx Wharton: heh. standing on the dog. Chatto Tomsen: generated stuff? Scarp Godenot: Kolor, what do you mean by the generated stuff? Kolor Fall: about half was correlated to SL ... good article on what the mainstream is thinking of SL Ginny Tedeschi: yes Ginny Tedeschi: where would you like me to dit? Anton Braendle: A fgood article on what THEY think the mainstream is thinking about SL ... Ginny Tedeschi: sit You: next to me ginny Kolor Fall: people put a few variables in then the art is generated (i.e. like fractals) Ludo Merit: The mainstream or the art mainstream? You: I'm the blue and copper naked man You: by teh window Kolor Fall: lol ... i guess art mainstream Scarp Godenot: The mainstream actually thinks we are all geeky losers here in SL from what I have experienced in the RL art world. Anton Braendle: They are more interested in how to commodify what is happening in here ... Chatto Tomsen: yes I think Scarp is right You: Interesting, geeky losers but they want in? Chatto Tomsen: They think we're geeky losers Anton Braendle: Adn this is wrong how, Scarp? Anton Braendle: *grin Chatto Tomsen: I think they're foolish luddites Scarp Godenot: Anton, it all comes down to money or sex when it comes down to SL in the media. Scarp Godenot: ha ha Anton.... Manx Wharton: I don't think RL undestands the potential ramifications of SL Kolor Fall: Geeky losers that they are worried are gonna take over the art world You: I so hate that attitude Anton Braendle: Read the article, folks ... You: SL isn't all money and sex (says the naked man..) Manx Wharton: and the SL people haven't coalesced yet. it's early. You: will do, sounds like a good read Pi Pooraka: take over the art world? Kolor Fall: kinda reminds me of the paris art de refuse show Anton Braendle: http://www.artnews.com/issues/article.asp?art_id=2443¤t=True Anton Braendle: Free access ... You: Thanks! Scarp Godenot: I don't think that RL or even a lot of SL ers know what is coming. VR development of other worlds is way bigger than most realize and growing at an alarming rate. Anton Braendle: NP ...professional courtesy ... Kolor Fall: i agree scarp Manx Wharton: the funny part Scarp Godenot: Do a google search on Virtual Worlds and you will be surprized. Kolor Fall: i don't like it though when someone just does a waveform ... throughs it up on a screen ... then tries to sell that as art Manx Wharton: is that it's largely people like us, already here, to have a point of view and foster it. Anton Braendle: Yes, do a google search ..then read the ToS and Access policies ... Anton Braendle: HYE MORRIS! Pi Pooraka: hi morries You: Morris, hello! Anton Braendle: And Isolde?! Morris Vig: Hey all Isolde Flamand: hello everyone Anton Braendle: LOL ...OMG! It's Morris! Manx Wharton: hi morris Morris Vig: OMG!! Kolor Fall: hi guys You: hey guys, welcome. We're winding down but fell free to join in. Ludo Merit: Hey, Morris. Glad you came over. Chatto Tomsen: with fractals - you do the variables- then you have to go explore the landscape to take a nice photo Morris Vig: sorry we're late You: Talking abot the ArtNews article on SL Scarp Godenot: Anton, there are MANY people working on VRML of the future. (virtual reality markup language} the avatar web is going to be here soon. Kolor Fall: well if your doing something with the fractals ... that makes sense and i like it Anton Braendle: (Wake me up when we get our jetpacks) You: jeez, just wake me up, ok? Chatto Tomsen: I did some fractals- but it's a lot of work Anton Braendle: All hte rhetoric doesn't change the humanity behind it Scarp Godenot: Kolor, I have seen particle artists here that definitely impress me with their talent. Chatto Tomsen: to find someting truly interesting Anton Braendle: NAmes, examples please ... Scarp Godenot: Elros Tuominen You: Elros rocks Kolor Fall: hmmm ... well i like Mater's stuff with the lasers ... i'll have to look for those particle artists Anton Braendle: Oh? Scarp Godenot: Go check out his place. Anton Braendle: That's one ...others? Morris Vig: Sabine is great with particles Pi Pooraka: everything he does looks the same Scarp Godenot: DanCoyote Antonelli Anton Braendle: Sabine ... yes .... Morris Vig: Oh Pi - you haven't looked long enough Anton Braendle: *smile ...too bad DC isn['t here ... Kolor Fall: Sabine have a link ? Anton Braendle: He'd have a field day ... You: who looks the same Pi? Too many pronouns You: Sabine Stonebender Scarp Godenot: Juria Yoshikawa Anton Braendle: Elros looks the same ... Anton Braendle: Just like Juria ... Pi Pooraka: Elros You: ok Anton Braendle: One trick pony ... though he gets some great scripters to help him You: disagree BTW... :- ) Scarp Godenot: I defy anybody in this room to make stuff as good as Elros Anton Braendle: And some good musicians ... Scarp Godenot: It is not about the tools. CC Checchinato: i missed something , what are you talking about? Pi Pooraka: disagree is ok Chatto Tomsen: most successful artists are one trick ponies Chatto Tomsen: let's face it Anton Braendle: Oh really, Chatto? Chatto Tomsen: you make the same piece over and over again Anton Braendle: Ishtat your experience talking? Chatto Tomsen: it's what the galleries want Sky Hye: It isn't necessarily their fault that they are... CC Checchinato: especially Lynn Hershman! Chatto Tomsen: yes Morris Vig: damned galleries Scarp Godenot: In fact, I defy anybody to build stuff as good as Madcow Cosmos. Sky Hye: Yup, that's the reason Isolde Flamand: the best ones are the ones that have never been done before, like madcow Gene Jun: Successful in who's eyes? You: Madcow is amazing Anton Braendle: Thanks Gene ... Chatto Tomsen: successful in the art world's eyes Pi Pooraka: what is success? Anton Braendle: Define success (though I think that discussion's been had) Chatto Tomsen: in societies eyes Pi Pooraka: wasn't that an art talk topic? Chatto Tomsen: Rothko You: I think so! Isolde Flamand: there is your next talk--what is success? but you know that talk ahs been done! Anton Braendle: I think it was ... Ludo Merit: Yes, it's on the web now Chatto Tomsen: same painting Chatto Tomsen: over Chatto Tomsen: and over Anton Braendle: Even I remember that Scarp Godenot: I think the artworld is ALWAYS behind the times. Morris Vig: success is internal satisfaction with one's work and its relation to the world around them Scarp Godenot: They are barely discovering Lowbrow right now. Gene Jun: Yes, but success should also be in the artist eyes as well. Anton Braendle: Well-said Morris ... Kolor Fall: artworld is the old art guard Morris Vig: ah - the mafia You: I fonud that really good artist are often insecure CC Checchinato: this is turning into gossip! Isolde Flamand giggles Morris Vig: ty anton Anton Braendle: You got it, CC ... You: don't worry, I'll publish it all.... CC Checchinato: Perhaps I think it is you who are senseless, perhaps I think it is myself who suffers a fundamental lack, who cannot comprehend what you are saying, no matter how many times you say it, and with what force. Perhaps I do not know to whom you are speaking, who is the recipient of your speech, perhaps it is not me at all. Perhaps you can't make sense of this, of what I am saying to you. Perhaps I am speechless Sky Hye: Checking your own feelings on that, Wake? Scarp Godenot: The $Artworld$ is about big prices. Nothing much more. Morris Vig: crap. Wake, I retract everything You: ha! Scarp Godenot: Whoa CC! CC Checchinato: ok Morris Vig: ditto scarp Chatto Tomsen: yes Scarp- relation to the world You: yeah, gotta read that again Kolor Fall: it's hard to seperate business from art in the "art world" Ludo Merit: I was just reminded that I have to get a piece ready for a contest by Thursday and therefore need my beauty sleep. Chatto Tomsen: cu Ludo Morris Vig: you can, Kolor, if economics are not a motivator You: by ludo ,tahnks for stopping by Pi Pooraka: are we talking about art for business? Kolor Fall: night Ludo Morris Vig: ciao Ludo Scarp Godenot: Go get those big prices Ludo! Pi Pooraka: take care ludo Anton Braendle: Gnight, Ludo ... You: ok folks, it is that time, time for Wake to disapper but before we go, I have two annoucements....... Sky Hye: Another excellent discussion, Wake! Thanks You: One, if you haven't heard, Morris is shutting down Oyster Bay, and there is a going away party tomorrow. You: So bet there! Kolor Fall: thanks Wake You: Second, next week should be a good talk Morris Vig: I like to think "End of the World" party Anton Braendle: Sniff. Anton Braendle: We'll miss it ... Scarp Godenot: Is Morris leaving SL? Morris Vig: god, we could only hope Scarp Godenot: Oh you are here. Sky Hye: I'm going to take off now... Thanks all! You: "Is SL Photography Art" and I have 2 guests, Anton and Scarp, it should be a good one. You: I hope to see you all tehre. Manx Wharton: cya sky Scarp Godenot: Why no oyster bay? Chatto Tomsen: cu Wake Chatto Tomsen: :-) You: I have the room all night, so keep on talking. but I gotta go Scarp Godenot: Put em up ANton! Ludo Merit: I haaven't read the note yet. Morris Vig: http://secondarts.wordpress.com Manx Wharton: heading out too gang. good street-fight talk tonight. You: Thanks all for coming by. Morris Vig: all the info is there Anton Braendle: Dream on, Scarp ... Isolde Flamand: Bye, Manx and Wake Manx Wharton: have a good one! Morris Vig: great skin, Wake Anton Braendle: It's a no-contest discussion ... Scarp Godenot: Hey wake, I say your following pieces at oyster bay You: Thanks morris Morris Vig: Kom's rubbing off on you. Ludo Merit: Great discussion, folks. Kolor Fall: my wife said my painting yesterday was ugly ... so i painted over it ... added blue ... she likes it now Scarp Godenot: I really liked them Anton Braendle: Gnight, Wake! Gene Jun: Bye! Scarp Godenot: Your one eyed creatures. Chatto Tomsen: lol everybody likes blue You: thanks, I'm glad, the watchers are a new things for me.... Scarp Godenot: They are very cool. You: 'night!!! Pi Pooraka: nite wake Morris Vig: yes cool pieces indeed Isolde Flamand: Night, Wake!