Host: PleaseWakeMeUp Idler
February 25, 2008
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Welcome to Art Talk!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Tonight we have 2 guests, Scarp and Anton, who will be speaking on SL Photography, Art or Not? Or something like that...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: The format will be a bit differernt tonight
Scarp Godenot: ha ha
Filthy Fluno: good
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Both of them will have put out notecard givers on the table
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (still chaos though filthy!)
Filthy Fluno: damn
Anton Braendle: Yes, please read them carefully and completely.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: you might want to read their positions to get a jump on thengis
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: things!
Filthy Fluno: fine
Filthy Fluno: k
Filthy Fluno: hates reading notecards
Anton Braendle: Slacker! (Filthy)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Both of them will be given 5 minutes WITHOUT INTERRUPTION to present their bits.
Filthy Fluno: big time
Pi Pooraka: hi ludo
Anton Braendle: Hello, Ludo
Ludo Merit: HI
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I flipped a coin so I know who goes first, they don't know yet.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: AFter their UNINTERRUPTED PARTS are over, then the chaos can can start
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: But first....
Pi Pooraka: hi heavenly
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Notice the big honking billboard on the stage?
Anton Braendle: Hello, Heavenly
Heavenly Mercy: Hello Anton
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Sherpa Voyager (and Seeker Gray) wrote part of the book and will be promoting it. And those who know Seeker know that I'm awfully like him... So stop by and ask them questions.
Sky Hye: I see the billboard
Filthy Fluno: yea.. what's this adversiting
Filthy Fluno: can we all advertise something?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: So, without any further ado, let me introduce our guests tonight.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (You can't you need to be in good with the sim ownner...)
Filthy Fluno: shit
Filthy Fluno: k
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I'll just cut and paste the bios they both gave me.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: in order of a new coin flip....
Anton Braendle: Show me the coin
Pi Pooraka: hello joel
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Anton Braendle is, in RL, an accomplished visual and sound artist. His visual work has been mainly in photography and the book arts, including the Japanese art of suminagashi. This work has been exhibited and collected nationally. In Second Life, he works closely, but behind the scenes with musician AldoManutio Abruzzo and others. He feels that the art scene in SL has along way to go; it is his strongly-held belief that the among the art forms most intrinsically "SL" are machinima and kinetic sculptures. Because of these iconoclastic beliefs, he does not show his work there, feeling that it does not translate effectively to SL.
Anton Braendle: Hello Joel ...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Now Scarp's...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I initially came into SL (as a RL photog) not even thinking about there being such a thing as 'Second Life Photography'. When I first considered it when shooting my first pieces, I thought. "hmmmmm, it's OK, and kinda fun". Then I ran into a couple of folks that were promoting SL or Virtual World photography as its own stand alone artform. My first reaction was: ....puhleeeeeze!, but the more I saw and thought and experimented, the more I realized that those folks weren't deluded at all. They were on to something! I have since become a firm supporter of SL or VR photography as its own medium worthy of great respect. I am currently working on a local RL show in my area consisting of SL pieces that I am excited about. I am a believer! ha ha. I am a RL photographic artist making about 30 percent of my living from selling artworks and the rest from commercial photography. Been in the artworld for 20 years or so. Originally trained as a scientist (geologist).
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Oh, one more thing, sorry
Pi Pooraka: hello emlie
Emilie Cryotank: Hello
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Your chat is being recorded and will be published,
Filthy Fluno: oy vey
Filthy Fluno: be patient here
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: One more thing for the newcomers.
Scarp Godenot: ha ha filthy
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I'm requesting silence for the first 10 minutes, the two guests ONLY should chat.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Scarp, you're up first!
Joel Savard: hi anton
Scarp Godenot: OK, judging from Antons materials we are talking about slightly different things.
Scarp Godenot: He seem to be hinging the argument on the definition of the word photography.
Scarp Godenot: While I am positing that the 'capture of pixels'
Scarp Godenot: In Second Life is an art form that should be taken seriously.
Scarp Godenot: So, I'm going to cut and past my formal arguments here a paragraph at a time.
Scarp Godenot: Can photographs or “captures” created in virtual 3D ‘worlds’ be considered and taken seriously at works of art?
Scarp Godenot: First of all let us agree here that photography can be art. This is not a discussion of whether photography is art. This discussion has been going on for 150 years and it is clear to most serious thinkers that photographs can be art.
Filthy Fluno: next
Filthy Fluno: absolutely
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: still time Filthy...
Filthy Fluno: sorry
Filthy Fluno: shuttin up
Gracie Kendal: (yea shhhh FIlthy)
Filthy Fluno: (SORRRY!!)
Scarp Godenot: Second, for purposes of this discussion we are defining the 2D pixilized digital information obtained from capturing a point of view ‘inside’ of a virtual 3D ‘world’, virtual world photography. It is also known as virtual reality photography or VR photography for short. In the virtual world of Second Life it is known as Second Life photography.
Gracie Kendal: hehe
Scarp Godenot: In the physical world, digital and film photography involves uses machines and other physical processes to accurately represent a two dimensional point of view of what is seen and processed by the human eye and brain
Scarp Godenot: The method of seeing involves looking at the 3D world through the portal of the rectangular viewfinder of the camera.
Scarp Godenot: In the virtual world, VR photography involves using machines and other physical processes to accurately represent a two dimensional point of view of what is seen and processed by the human eye and brain. The same mental functions of creation are used to determine the selection of the image in both types of photoraphy.
Scarp Godenot: The method of seeing in VR photography involves looking at the 3D world through the portal of the screen of the computer. The viewfinder of the camera and the screen of the computer perform the same function in designing what will eventually be the final work of art.
Scarp Godenot: Design in both VR and physical world photography is determined by the point of view as seen by the artist through either the computer screen or the viewfinder. This point of view is almost infinitely variable.
Scarp Godenot: This near infinity of possible points of view should not be underestimated, as it is what constitues the uniquness of a particular artist. Their choices will not be the choices of others. And the success of their choices will determine whether their art is good or bad when viewed by others.
Scarp Godenot: Moving in any direction around a subject and placing the subject in a 2D relationship with the images of the 3D objects that surround them is what determines the design elements in both kinds of photography. The many choices here lead to the final design or ‘beauty’of the image. These choices are just as ‘real’ and complicated in a virtual world as they are in the physical world.
Filthy Fluno: (points his camera view up Gracie's miniskirt)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Excellent. But Time is up. Thank you Scarp.
Gracie Kendal: /Hey!!!!!!!!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Anton, your turn now.
Anton Braendle: Very well ...
Filthy Fluno: IT'S ART KENDALL!
Pi Pooraka: filth old man
Anton Braendle: THank you Wake.
Scarp Godenot: Moving in any direction around a subject and placing the subject in a 2D relationship with the images of the 3D objects that surround them is what determines the design elements in both kinds of photography. The many choices here lead to the final design or ‘beauty’of the image. These choices are just as ‘real’ and complicated in a virtual world as they are in the physical world.
Scarp Godenot: Sorry
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: np, overlap is ok
Scarp Godenot: technical difficulties.
Anton Braendle: FOUL!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: timer isn't runnig yet....
Gracie Kendal: lol
Anton Braendle: My Learned Oppnent has attempted to muddy the waters of the discussion by redefining the phenomena
Scarp Godenot: So, to sum up, the method of creating works of art is very similar for both the physical world photographer and the virtual world photographer. As for the finished products, they are both defined static rectangular perceivable objects, that contain iconography that is processed by the viewer in a way that meaning is exchanged. Whether that meaning is abstract or concrete. The ‘finished product’ of both modern physical world photography and virtual world photography are identical: Two dimensional arrangements of pixels that create imagery interpreted by the viewers using their life experiences for evaluation. The pixels can be displayed in many ways, seamlessly including both display in computer virtual worlds and as physical printed objects framed and presented in a gallery setting. Art is about ideas or perceptions and the communication of them. It requires only two things: 1) The intent of the artist to present a piece as art. and 2) A perceivable ‘product’or event that can convey t
Scarp Godenot: The end
Scarp Godenot: Oh well.
Scarp Godenot: Read it later.
Anton Braendle: Has everyone read the documents we have prepared?
Filthy Fluno: no
Anton Braendle: THe question at hand is "Is SL PHotography Art?"
Filthy Fluno: thank you scarp... i understand your point
Ludo Merit: Skimmed
Sky Hye: no time -- too much discussion to follwo in the room
Anton Braendle: THe answer in brief is quite simply, no.
Anton Braendle: Because there is no photography in SL.
Anton Braendle: I'll repeat that in case you missed it: there is no photography in SL.
Filthy Fluno: ok
Scarp Godenot: Straw man.
Filthy Fluno: explain
Anton Braendle: Cool it Scarp.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: yes, please....
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: shhhhh......
Anton Braendle: Photogrpahy is a PHYSICAL phenomena, literally "writing with light".
Anton Braendle: What we expereince here is NOT light but pixels.
Filthy Fluno: looks like light to me
Anton Braendle: I am not arguong that the capture of these pixels in to meanignful arrangments is NOT art, simpoly that it is NOT photography.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (for the new arrivals, please remain quiet until the open chat starts... Thanks)
Anton Braendle: Pixels, by their very definition, are NOT light ...
Anton Braendle: ANd the "fixed" arrangements we make by their capture and distribution here, is not an object, which a photograph is...
Anton Braendle: BTW, photos are NOT just 2D, but also 3D ...
Anton Braendle: If you want to call it "pixelography" fine, but it is't photography.
Anton Braendle: As I said ...we continue to show incredible lack of imagination by not develooping
Anton Braendle: new forms of art6 that are definied STRICTLY in terms of SL ...
Anton Braendle: Why give it the name of something we carrie din from outside?
Anton Braendle: Are we THAT uncreative?
Anton Braendle: Someone please SHOW me an SL print ... in SL ...
Anton Braendle: Unless you can show me the physical object, you have proved npothing ...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Excellant Anton, but time is up. Let Anton's last phrase come out then the open chat can begin!
Filthy Fluno: ok
Anton Braendle: That's all ... I"m sure it's enough
Filthy Fluno: i will start
Filthy Fluno: both have great points
Gracie Kendal: LOL Of course filthy
Filthy Fluno: and make me think
Chatto Tomsen: language is flexible- the meaning of the word of photography has changed slightly is all
Anton Braendle: You re kind, Filthy ...in spite of your appearance
Chatto Tomsen: so what
Scarp Godenot: Chatto is so right
Filthy Fluno: seriously
Filthy Fluno: i don't feel the obligation to take a side
Anton Braendle: No, Chatto has only made an satute observation ...it isn't right or wrong
Filthy Fluno: i need to ponder it for a while
Anton Braendle: Let Filthy finish
Anton Braendle: *astute
Filthy Fluno: however
Filthy Fluno: as a RL artist who makes drawings about sl stuff
Filthy Fluno: i use the snapshot to capture images in here
Anton Braendle: Snapshot?
Filthy Fluno: that i later print out, take to my studio, and draw inspiration from.. literally
Scarp Godenot: Anton's argument is to build up the 'straw man' of his definition of photography and then to say it doesn't fit his definition of VR imagery.
Anton Braendle: Or screen capture?
Filthy Fluno: yea.. the snapshot button
Filthy Fluno: see it below on your screen
Filthy Fluno: i hit that button
Pi Pooraka: filthy, do you mean screenshot?
Anton Braendle: No, Scarp ...I'm going on history ...
Filthy Fluno: no
Filthy Fluno: i hit the snapshot button
Anton Braendle: Okay ...
Filthy Fluno: and it does what i need
Anton Braendle: IT is a METAPHOR for a camera ...
Pi Pooraka: but that is really just a screenshot
Filthy Fluno: so what
Filthy Fluno: metaphors are fine
Scarp Godenot: There is no difference between the pixels of my digital camera and the pixels captured in second life. They are the sam.
Scarp Godenot: same
Filthy Fluno: want to change the "fly" button too?
Filthy Fluno: we're not really flying
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: must a camera have film? a glass lens? A physical media?
Morris Vig thinks he heard a camera snap a photo
Anton Braendle: No, there is considerable difference between those pixels, Scarp ...
Scarp Godenot: No there is not. Not in any sense.
Cosmica Mornington: Hi everybody, sorry I'm late
Anton Braendle: And I can prive that ...
Filthy Fluno: MORRIS!
Filthy Fluno: hi man!!
Anton Braendle: *prove
Gracie Kendal: LOL orris
Gracie Kendal: Morris
Joel Savard raises hand...
Filthy Fluno: here comes the craziness
Anton Braendle: But it isn't germane to the discussion of "Art"
Filthy Fluno: Hi Joel!
Morris Vig: Yo filthy, Gracie, all....
Joel Savard: hi filthy
Anton Braendle: Hello, Morris ...
Pi Pooraka: hi morris
Joel Savard: so i have a question for anton
Filthy Fluno: speak unto us Joel!
Anton Braendle: Okay, Joel ...go ahead ...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: yes all, this is chaos time, the way Wake likes it.
Chatto Tomsen: It's a new medium- It took the painting world years to take acrylics seriously- this is the same thing
Joel Savard: if i build a camera that uses no lens (yes they now exist) and instead it uses sophisticated signal analysis to replace the lens
Anton Braendle: Please, Chatto ... JOel has the floor
Joel Savard: is that all of a sudden not photography, evn though
Scarp Godenot: Pixels can be displayed in any of a dozen different ways, they are the intellectual content of imagery regardless of where or how they were created.
Joel Savard: it has a viewfinder
Joel Savard: has point of view
Joel Savard: has perspective
Scarp Godenot: The screen is a viewfinder exactly in the same way as a camera viewfinder.
Joel Savard: and has all the characteristics of a lens-based camera?
Joel Savard: is it thus not photography and thus not art by your claim?
Chatto Tomsen: are you guys using digital cameras yet?
Scarp Godenot: The points of view are created in the same ways as well.
Scarp Godenot: I am all digital in real life. Camera wise.
Anton Braendle: Please REREAD the definitons I have provided ...photorgaphy si NOT about the tools used to create it, but rather the output of the process.
Carabella Babii: may I interject
Joel Savard: apologies - missed definitions
Scarp Godenot: NOt true Anton photography can be displayed in SL.
Filthy Fluno: please interject
Filthy Fluno: carabella?
Filthy Fluno: fire away
Anton Braendle: No, Scarp ..you are showing a surroagte of a photograph in here, if it comes from the RL
Scarp Godenot: Rl photography displayed in sl has virtually the identical intellectual content of displayed by print.
Joel Savard: to me this sounds like an argument about whether sl photography is photography or painting - does it matter?
Carabella Babii: photograph as an art is not about the camera
Chatto Tomsen: you're being pedantic
Anton Braendle: Scarp will you let others speak
Scarp Godenot: Speak away.
Filthy Fluno: what's pedantic mean?
Scarp Godenot: wordy
Morris Vig: something with feet
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (the host is happy with the chaos...)
Carabella Babii: but rather the perspective and use of light to project an emotion or meaning
Chatto Tomsen: nitpickity
Anton Braendle: No it doesn't Scarp ...
Joel Savard: oh rats - have to run for an appointment... nice to see you guys... wish i could lob a few more into the fray ;)
Carabella Babii: anyone can pick up a cmera and anyone can do a snapshot
Anton Braendle: Carabella...may we address your points? Or does Scarp nees to comment first?
Chatto Tomsen: cu Joel
Filthy Fluno: seeya joel!!
Scarp Godenot: You are a touchy one Anton....
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: no rules, no rules, no prisoners!!!!!
Anton Braendle: BYe, Joel ... I"m sorry we didn't get to address your points ...
Carabella Babii: but it is how it used and what it produces in the end that will be judge to be art or not
Anton Braendle: No, Scarp ... i juust abhor intellectual dishonetsy and laziness ...
Scarp Godenot: Carabella is right.
Filthy Fluno: yea scarp
Chatto Tomsen: sheesh
Filthy Fluno: don't be so lazy
Anton Braendle: And I see a lot of it too many discussions here ...
Sky Hye: This isn't about whether photography is art, I don't think.
Scarp Godenot: ha ha
Filthy Fluno: no its not sky
Anton Braendle: You're right, Sky ...
Scarp Godenot: Gimme a break anton.
Anton Braendle: Why, Warp? Would you?
Filthy Fluno: this is if SL photography is photography.. and if so... is it art
Anton Braendle: *Scarp
Carabella Babii: oh that is what the note said , Is SL photography Art?
Scarp Godenot: It is about whether SL photography is a stand alone art form. That is what I was talking about.
Anton Braendle: No, Filthy ...that's a subntle shift ...
Filthy Fluno: don't beleive those silly notes
Carabella Babii: not all photgraphy is art in the rl
Filthy Fluno: they're spam
Anton Braendle: LOL ...want my recipe for Spam?
Filthy Fluno: yes anton
Sky Hye: What is the core of the question that is being addressed?
Anton Braendle: HOw many of you present in this room are stretching the boundarie in your work?
Scarp Godenot: Everybody.
Filthy Fluno: raises his hand
Carabella Babii: hmm why wouldnt be if it creates in the same manner as rl photography
Morris Vig: Oh I stopped last week
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I HOPE I'm stretching....
Anton Braendle: Prove it, Scarp ...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: ha morris!!!
Carabella Babii: beyond the point and shoot
Emilie Cryotank: i just joined recenlty
quadrapop Lane: lol Morris
Scarp Godenot: Prove what?
Filthy Fluno: yea morris.. .lazy ass
Scarp Godenot: haha
Morris Vig: lol filthy
Anton Braendle: That everyone here is stretching the boundaries with their work ...
Gracie Kendal: Definitely
Scarp Godenot: Just pursuing your artwork is stretching your boundaries.
Anton Braendle: I see one unique art form in SL, that stands out as definitve ...
Pi Pooraka: artists with borders
Anton Braendle: BS, Sacarp ...just means you're keeping busy
Filthy Fluno: what's that anton
quadrapop Lane: artists without borders
Gracie Kendal: without*
Gracie Kendal: hehe
Anton Braendle: Machinima ...
Filthy Fluno: oh paaaaalease
Anton Braendle: Nope ...
Scarp Godenot: Machinima is moving sl photography with music. heh
Anton Braendle: No ... it's video ... remember>
Noelani Lightfoot: Pardon, But Machinima has been going on long before SL
Filthy Fluno: its just multiple snapshots
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: is the "new" name what makes it special?
Anton Braendle: Film is "moving photography"
Filthy Fluno: with audio
Noelani Lightfoot: This is just a new 3D environ. to do it in
Filthy Fluno: and manipulation
Morris Vig welcomes SL photographer Isolde Flamand
Isolde Flamand: HI everyone
Gracie Kendal: LOl what is the definitely of2d and 3d in SL?
Carabella Babii: hello
Gracie Kendal: Isolde!!!!
Filthy Fluno: fancy pixel sock puppet shows
Anton Braendle: No ...it's a recognition of how to use the environment in ways not rpeviously utilized ...
Pi Pooraka: hi isolde
Chatto Tomsen: Hi
Gracie Kendal: definition*
Isolde Flamand: :-)
Scarp Godenot: Machinima is VR cinema. Just as SL 'screen capture' is similar to physical world photography
Filthy Fluno: its all one big mash up of new media in here. layers upon layers
Anton Braendle: Similar?
quadrapop Lane: SL mashups - nice new media....
Anton Braendle: Now y9ou're saying similar?
Morris Vig thinks SL photography : RL photography :: Machinima : Motion Pictures
Anton Braendle: I thought your position was that they were one and the same
Filthy Fluno: if LL gave us a button on our screen called "instant abstract sculpture"
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: that's right morris, bingo
Anton Braendle: Cna't have it both ways ...
Gracie Kendal: exactly Morris
Filthy Fluno: ummmm
Filthy Fluno: i had a point there
Anton Braendle: THe physical universe doesn'[t allow that
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I think they did just that Filthy....
Morris Vig: Oh filthy, you need to upgrade to the new viewer
Morris Vig: Came with WL
Filthy Fluno: lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Easy to be a sculptor in SL
Chatto Tomsen: the physical universe allows everything
Scarp Godenot: I never said they were the same thing, I said they were both similar art forms that deserve respect AS art forms.
Morris Vig: thanks, Wake..... :-(
Gracie Kendal: LOL not really Wake
Anton Braendle: I cna't fly in the physical universe, Chatto ... *smile
Gracie Kendal: TRUST MWE
Gracie Kendal: me*
Filthy Fluno: its not flying anton
Filthy Fluno: birds fly
Anton Braendle: No, you said they are the same ...
Filthy Fluno: we move pixels faster
PleaseGiveMeACracker: yeah, birds fly!
Chatto Tomsen: you think SL isn't physical? we have havok 4 now
Anton Braendle: I didn't say I fly in here ... Cahtto said the PU allows everything
Anton Braendle: Pffft!
Filthy Fluno: oh
Scarp Godenot: Read my note and you will see what I'm saying Anton.
Carabella Babii: Question: If it is a agreed that sl photography can stand on it own as art then as fas as intellectual right are concern how can one clain it in rl as art
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Hell, I get vertigo here also, that makes it pretty damn real to me.
quadrapop Lane: SL is RL - just made up of electrons flowing through a man made construct (ie tool)
Anton Braendle: I did read your note and your long-winde cut and paste ...
Filthy Fluno: i agree with that carabella
Gracie Kendal: Carabella, its being one
Morris Vig: Try that again Carabella, I think you're onto something
Gracie Kendal: an SL photography sold for $10000
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: ha sky!
Filthy Fluno: really gracie?
Gracie Kendal: There was an article in Marketwatch
Filthy Fluno: who sold it?
Gracie Kendal: Yea...someone sent me the article...
Gracie Kendal: let me see if I can find it
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I saw it too
Filthy Fluno: that article is caca
Carabella Babii: I would like to see
Morris Vig: Probably Aimee Weber - she's the only one who can make money
Morris Vig: lol
Anton Braendle: Gracie ... was it $10K in SL or a "print" of the object in RL
Morris Vig: SL rules
Filthy Fluno: it sights NO NAMES
Scarp Godenot: Carabella: it must be physicalized to be real world art. But the intellectual property rights on creation are the same regardless.
Gracie Kendal: nope..RL money
Morris Vig: I've got the article on my blog....let me grab it
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: ahhh, good point filthy, colud have be BS
Morris Vig: yeah RL $$
quadrapop Lane: SL photography is made into RL art by being printed and sold as such - SL then becomes yet another #D rendering environment -
Anton Braendle: But was the "object" in RL
Filthy Fluno: it is BS
quadrapop Lane: 3D*
Gracie Kendal: oh yea Morris..thx
Gracie Kendal: yes it was Anton
Anton Braendle: And that output is not a "photograph, BTW ...
Gracie Kendal: LOL
Filthy Fluno: i sold a pixel drawing for 900000000 last week
Anton Braendle: It's a print ... period.
Filthy Fluno: i sold it to my alt
quadrapop Lane: it is an image - yes but who cares hiow the image is made?
Anton Braendle: An inkjet print most likely ...
Scarp Godenot: Anton, that output is a photograph in every sense of the word.
Chatto Tomsen: lol Filthy
Morris Vig: Here ya go: http://secondarts.wordpress.com/2008/02/13/you-probably-wont-get-rich-in-sl-as-an-artist-butwhy-not-in-rl/
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: If shoot with a digital camera, and print on a color calibrated Iris, that's not a photo? That's an awfully fine point you're making...
Filthy Fluno: thanks morris
Anton Braendle: YOu should care if you care about your work, quad...
Morris Vig: I made the article into a PDF
Morris Vig: np
Filthy Fluno: its an exciting article
quadrapop Lane: if a traditional analog photo is printed on a dye sub rather than through a enlarger and onto photo paper does it stop being a photo?
Filthy Fluno: too bad there's like.. no way to back it up
Morris Vig: Anton, repent now - Calli is here.
Scarp Godenot: Ask the gallery owner who is displaying the SL printed piece if it is a photograph. What do you think they will say?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: they'll say it is rent money...
Scarp Godenot: ha ha
Carabella Babii: haha
quadrapop Lane: it is as much aphoto as the image printed frm a digital cmera
Anton Braendle: I have nothing for which to repent ...except maybe having missed lobbiong more grenades
Ludo Merit: Sorry, crashed. Are we still discussing definitions?
Filthy Fluno: lol
Anton Braendle: *lobbing
Filthy Fluno: SLobbing
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Here's one Anton, does it MATTER what we call "it"?
Filthy Fluno: no
Anton Braendle: Call what?
Filthy Fluno: it doesn't matter
Filthy Fluno: its art
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: a digital print
Filthy Fluno: art art art
Morris Vig: Does anyone here do both SL photography and RL?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: can I call it a photo w/o going to hell or sometihng?
Anton Braendle: Are we discussing digital printing?
Carabella Babii: I do
Filthy Fluno: joel does
Anton Braendle: Yes, I do Morris ...
Morris Vig: OK
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I think many would think that a digital print is a photo
Morris Vig: Then the question I have is whether the skill involved would be similar
Filthy Fluno: i tell you tis
Morris Vig: Zooming, etc.
quadrapop Lane: yes
Filthy Fluno: this
Filthy Fluno: i've spent many an hour in a dark room
Morris Vig: and I in GIMP
Anton Braendle: I never said that a digital print wasn't photgrpahy ...
Filthy Fluno: with all the chimicals.. and the magic that happens there
Carabella Babii: Yes, I believe so
Grace McDunnough: (always knew Filthy was a mushroom)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Just different magic filthy....
Scarp Godenot: So Anton, if I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that printed pieces of VR created visual imagery should have a separate category of name?
Anton Braendle: And what you call these screen captures IS important ...
quadrapop Lane: SL photogrpahy is more akin to digiatl RL photog and uimage maniplulation than trditional chemicla based photography production
Filthy Fluno: eaxctly my point
Carabella Babii: you look for lighting, position of the subject, what you are trying to convey
Filthy Fluno: there's always going to be magic
Filthy Fluno: and if there's magic
Morris Vig: Screen caps are such if they include all of the captions, windows,etc.
Filthy Fluno: its art
Anton Braendle: No, but you can if you wish ...
Filthy Fluno: and if there's no magic
Morris Vig: A clean image is a photo
Filthy Fluno: its might not be art
Isolde Flamand: computerized special effects in movies might not be considered traditional movie-making either, but we all think of them as still movies....
Filthy Fluno: it will be... slart....
Filthy Fluno: tm
quadrapop Lane: lol
Anton Braendle: No, Morris ...a screen cap is a screen cap is a screen cap to paraphrase the Madame
quadrapop Lane: you git thatr TM Filthy?
Scarp Godenot: I approach shooting a SL photo in exactly the same way as I approach shooting a physical world photo.
Noelani Lightfoot: Oh Filthy, and you fall in slove with the slart in your slife
Anton Braendle: IT's just cropped or not ...
quadrapop Lane: got*
Filthy Fluno: oh yea
Gracie Kendal: alreaady taken Filthy
Morris Vig: not buying that elixir, Anton
Filthy Fluno: yes
Anton Braendle: So what ... that doesn';t make it a photograph, Scarp
Filthy Fluno: let's not go there to the TM
quadrapop Lane: hehe ok
Filthy Fluno: that will be next year's topic
Filthy Fluno: lol
Scarp Godenot: Can't we get over the phrase 'screen capture'? What is the big hang up there?
Filthy Fluno: its a snapshot!
Chatto Tomsen: pedantic
Filthy Fluno: look at the button they gave us!
Filthy Fluno: press fly... we fly
Filthy Fluno: press chat
quadrapop Lane: yeah - my digital camera essentially takes a screen capture...
Chatto Tomsen: nitpickity
Filthy Fluno: we chat
Scarp Godenot: It is the same as a shutter button, Filthy.
Anton Braendle: Because you have the opportunity to make a difference and you're being lazy and perpetuating a system form outside SL
Scarp Godenot: ha ha
Gracie Kendal: Filthy......
Anton Braendle: Quad, ytou don't understandyour camera, then if you believe that
Gracie Kendal: so because someone cals it that, it is???
Scarp Godenot: It isn't up to me Anton.
Filthy Fluno: yes
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: what would not "Being lazy" get us Anton?
Grace McDunnough: Um Conde .. how are ya
Anton Braendle: Language is important in art ,,,
Filthy Fluno: because linden calls it snapshot
quadrapop Lane: oh i do Anton... I was being facetious
Filthy Fluno: that's what i'm gonna call it
Conde Artaud: vintx
Gracie Kendal: I mean, because someone (A Linden) names i that...
Conde Artaud: hi
Filthy Fluno: until i need a good reason not to
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I don't give a rat's as what the Linden's call it.
Filthy Fluno: you should
Anton Braendle: What's a giclee print?
Filthy Fluno: they invented all this shit
Anton Braendle: Quick.
Anton Braendle: Bueller?
Filthy Fluno: so give them that at least
Filthy Fluno: lol
Cosmica Mornington: ink jet
Sky Hye: An Iris print
Anton Braendle: So why do they call it giclee?
Scarp Godenot: Anton, that name giclee was invented by a photographer to make ink jet sound cooler by the way.....
Filthy Fluno: if you need to call it something else.. then that's fine
Anton Braendle: No Iris is a trademark
quadrapop Lane: hi rez dogital to photographuic print proceess imagfe production method
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: marketing...
Sky Hye: Some A hole seller made it up
Morris Vig just took a photo of anton
Filthy Fluno: no you didn't
Filthy Fluno: you took a snapshot
Anton Braendle: No, Morris, you took a snapshot according to Filthy
quadrapop Lane: giclee uses different inks and paper though and is archival
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: make it sepia, then it is a photo... :- )
Morris Vig: actually, it was a polaroid
Isolde Flamand: here's what Jazz Calhern has to say: [19:14] Jazz Calhern: lol....we work with the technology available to us...I don't see little cameras popping out of the monitor ;)
Carabella Babii: oh boy symantecs
Anton Braendle: No it is NOT archival ...
Noelani Lightfoot: I was thinking that Carabella
Gracie Kendal: so true Isolde :)
Filthy Fluno: hey conde!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: not all photographs are archival, stuff my mom and dad shot in the 60s in junk now
Filthy Fluno: death is normal mofo!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: is junk now
Scarp Godenot: It seems we are lost in the semantics here.
Gracie Kendal: So why not rename it...
Gracie Kendal: why not change the SLArt world????
Chatto Tomsen: ah you could do that Isolde- you could get a camera and take a shot of the screen- would it be photography then? Would we be allowed into the holy circle?
Anton Braendle: Gah ...can we not introduce THAT can of worms in here ...
Filthy Fluno: lol
Scarp Godenot: ha ha Chatto
Chatto Tomsen: XD
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I see the point you are espousing Anton, but WHY is it important, that's the crux here.
Morris Vig gave you Snapshot : Mandel'BRAT's and BREW, Artropolis (80, 75, 26).
Anton Braendle: "Archival"?
Anton Braendle: Is it germane to this discussion?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Why is the semantics important?
quadrapop Lane: I missed the beginning of this - did anyone define the terms we are using here today?
Anton Braendle: Because we are talking about "objects" in a "virtual" world, where interactions are, at best, surrogates
Ludo Merit: Something I read in one of your bios might be relevant. There are art forms in SL that we don't have, or at least can't do as well, in RL. Accurate naming might just make us more conscious of the differences, and advantages, of being here.
Anton Braendle: SO language, both new and old become significant ...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: term definitions are the core of the discussion....
Pi Pooraka: art critiques need the proper terminology to get viewpoints across
Gracie Kendal: Yes Ludo
Anton Braendle: Exactly, Wake
quadrapop Lane: ok ty wake
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: click the two objects on the table for position papers
Scarp Godenot: So, Virtual Reality as a source for art, is a legitimate art form, right? We can agree to this?
Gracie Kendal: Quad, click on the boxes in the center on the table
Morris Vig: Commonly shared terminology, Pi - agreed
Anton Braendle: Thank you Ludo ...one of my points exactly ...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: So, if I didn't call myself a scupltor, then I might make different things then?
Anton Braendle: I ahve never once said that art does not exist in SL ...
Carabella Babii: I think it depends but as a whole I say yes to agree
Anton Braendle: Rare, perhaps, but it is here
Chatto Tomsen: is there anything at all invalid as a source for art?
Gracie Kendal: I think we would have to define 2d and 3d then too
Ludo Merit: And 'kinetic sculpture'
Anton Braendle: Well ...forst off, Gracie ...there is no 3D ...
Callipygian Christensen: I am not getting Anton's for some reason
Gracie Kendal: the art world in RL is defined by the critics adn historians....
Anton Braendle: Simulations, yes ...
Scarp Godenot: Wake: what would you call SL building of art objects if not sculpture?
Morris Vig: Same in SL, Gracie
Gracie Kendal: yes, I agree
Gracie Kendal: thats why I am writing my thesis on it
Chatto Tomsen: according to Anton we have to be creative and make a new word so as not to sully the good name of photography
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I dunno, I'm starting to wonder that IF there were a new world, would that make me think differently, and therefore create differently.
Anton Braendle: Meh, I call it scripting ...damned good scripting, but scripting all the samce
Scarp Godenot: good one Chatto.
Anton Braendle: No, Chatto ...you're not using your brain ...
Sky Hye: slography
Anton Braendle: Just being flip
Anton Braendle: PIxelography ...
Scarp Godenot: Anton scripting is only a part of it.
Carabella Babii: slography ?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: But it DOES sound protectionist Anton
Ludo Merit: I would call prim builds sculpture and snapshots photography, but what do you call the thing I am doing that involves snapshots, poetry and sound?
Anton Braendle: Oh, pulllleeeeeze, Scarp ...
Scarp Godenot: Texturing and form consruction are parts.
Sky Hye: take out the photo part -- no photons
Carabella Babii: I prefer Antons naming convention if one has to choose
Anton Braendle: Mixed media, Ludo ...
Chatto Tomsen: George Bernard Shaw tried to control language and he didn't get very far either
Anton Braendle: Pixelography? Fine ... works for me ...
quadrapop Lane: multimedia Ludo ;-)
Ludo Merit: That's an RL term.
Scarp Godenot: Pulllleeeeeze isn't much of an argument anton.
Gracie Kendal: this is all New Media...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Mixed media is so non-descriptive though, I thought you were aiming for precision here.
Anton Braendle: Nor are yo9ur comments, Scarp ...
Morris Vig: no scarp but it's the name of a new art form
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (I'd say play nice but this is the No Rules Zone....)
Scarp Godenot: ha ha Morris
Conde Artaud: No media art ?
Chatto Tomsen: words have a life of their own- they evolve in the medium of culture
Anton Braendle: What does that mean? "Media"art?
quadrapop Lane: so what are we talking about... sl screenshots being displayed inworld as SL 2d images (on a prim which is 3d inworld) or of SL snapshots printedout and sold in RL
quadrapop Lane: or both?
Scarp Godenot: OK, so we have to rename all art like things in Virtual Worlds to something different Anton?
Chatto Tomsen: whatever this is will get a name
Anton Braendle: YOu do what you wish ...
Carabella Babii: to be precise it is computer generated
Chatto Tomsen: names
Gracie Kendal: not necessarily Carabella
quadrapop Lane: agreed Carabella
Anton Braendle: Since you are stretching boundaries ... *grin
quadrapop Lane: well what else could SL photos be but computer generated Gracie?
Gracie Kendal: media alone has a plethora of uses
Carabella Babii: the use of the computer is used to create the subject in acomputer generated world
Scarp Godenot: Carabella, human generated using computer. I would say.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: If, for example, Isolde calls herself a photographer in SL, people know what she does. If she calls herself something eles, no one will know what she does.
Gracie Kendal: Oh, no I didnt mean it like that
Gracie Kendal: thats why we werite aobu tit Wake
Anton Braendle: Wake, change takes time ... but you have to commit to it ... I don't see much commitment here ...
Gracie Kendal: ugh
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: That's why I call myself a sculptor, to distingush myself from the SL artist who work with "flat" things. But I know I don't have a chisel or a welder.
quadrapop Lane: Computer Aided Design
Anton Braendle: Both of those are RL tools ...
Anton Braendle: Yes, CAD is certainly appropriate ...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Hard to commit when we don't know what to call ourselves, changes takes evolutionary time
quadrapop Lane: but you could have those 3d object burnt in RL on a resin #D printer Wake...
Chatto Tomsen: why would we commit to something so unimportant? we're artists.
Conde Artaud: well in my case I'm a film maker I create 3D story boards now !
Anton Braendle: "IF a man ain't nothing else, why then he can call himself an artist"
quadrapop Lane: at least the ones that dont emit particles in world or move unusually ;-)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: but maybe it is important Chatto? I really don't know.
Scarp Godenot: The world will call it virtual world photography.
Chatto Tomsen: it's academics trying to control art
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I like being a sculptor, I don't like bing a New Media Artist
Morris Vig: MarketWatch calls it filthy lucre
Anton Braendle: Oh right, Chatto ... show me.
Chatto Tomsen: as if
quadrapop Lane: lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Filthy calls it that also!
Cosmica Mornington: Ooh -- as an academic I object!!
Gracie Kendal: yes, but academics are important to art
Scarp Godenot: Academics writing about art always gets the artists blood pressure rising.... heh
Noelani Lightfoot: Please: it is scuplting though, not with your rl hands but you do take pieces here and form something new, to "create" or "shape"
Anton Braendle: Same here Cosmica ... I don't want it!
Chatto Tomsen: it was bloody Adorno he started it
Cosmica Mornington: I'm not interested in controlling art!
Chatto Tomsen: the critic as artist
quadrapop Lane: what artists do and what art historians and critics do are completely different things
Chatto Tomsen: give me a break
quadrapop Lane: theonly things tehy have in common are the objects made or viewed/discussed
Gracie Kendal: LOl Quad, I dont agree
Cosmica Mornington: and make no pretense at being an artist
Scarp Godenot: Well said quadrapop
Gracie Kendal: I am both
Anton Braendle: Are you not being critics even now, Chatto? Scarp?
Carabella Babii: It to give it value and validity
Anton Braendle: Talking about whether or not something is "Art"?
quadrapop Lane: as am I gracie
Gracie Kendal: exactly Anton
Anton Braendle: That's very disingenuous ...
Anton Braendle: An dthe kind of intellectual dishonesty I alluded to earlier ...
quadrapop Lane: when I am engaged in art creation I am not doing the same thingh as wehn I am writing a exhibition critique
Scarp Godenot: Anton, yes we are being critics, that is why we are pissing of the artists. ha ha
Cosmica Mornington: heh -- I never let my student force me into the "is it art" discussion
Carabella Babii: to be taken seriously as an artist even if your tool of choice is within sl
Anton Braendle: Good and wise, Cosmica
Pi Pooraka: one can be an artist and a criticc
Chatto Tomsen: why is it disingenuous to talk about something not being art- when it isn't disingenuous to talk about something not being photography?
Scarp Godenot: good one Chatto
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: ooooo.....
quadrapop Lane: hmmm
Anton Braendle: I didn't say it was ... I said your comments about critics and artists was disngenuous ...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Ok folks, time is officially up, but feel free to stay. I've got the room all night.
Chatto Tomsen: no it wasn't - I meant it
Chatto Tomsen: I always mean what I say
Anton Braendle: Of course you do, Chatto ...
Scarp Godenot: I recommend the book "The Painted Word" for a good critique of art critics.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Next week, March 4 - What is Art?, Part IV, Does "it" depend upon the art education of the viewer? Does one really need an art education to appreciate art? How does not having the background and/or the vocabulary change your perceptions of the piece?
Cosmica Mornington: sounds great, Wake!
quadrapop Lane: oh that will be a meaty one Filthy lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: and next next week.... March 10 - Feathers Boa will be the guest. This may be a Rez and Critque or she may have a topic.
quadrapop Lane: sory Wake
Ludo Merit: Now that discussion I want to hear,
Gracie Kendal: Thx Wake :)))
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Good night all....
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: thanks for coming by.
Anton Braendle: Good night, Wake ...thanks again.
quadrapop Lane: TY MOrris...
Chatto Tomsen: thanks Wake :-)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: yw all!