Host: PleaseWakeMeUp Idler
December 17, 2007
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: For those new here, we hold this talk weekly.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Artist and non-artists are welcome. We sometimes have a topic, sometimes we don't.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Tonight we have a special guest!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Cosmica Mornington is a PhD student in art history in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She is researching how art and archaeological artifacts are collected in Second Life for a class in the ethics of collecting.
Cosmica Mornington: Hi everyone -- I'm pleased to be here!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Welcome Cosmica!
Cosmica Mornington: It was so nice of Wake to arrange a talk around my research!
Filthy Fluno: welcome cosmica.. we're not worthy... WE"RE NO WORTHY!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (have a seat Cthulhu...)
Sky Hye: Welcome, Cosmica. Nice to meet you.
Sherpa Voyager: You;re equating SL archaeology with RL archaeology?
Cosmica Mornington: not equating
Sherpa Voyager: doing what, then? It's an interesting concept.
Filthy Fluno: well.. let her get out of the gate man!
Cosmica Mornington: I'm looking at how the way SL art and artifacts act, or interact with their makers and collectors can inform us about RL issues
Filthy Fluno: lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: And what can you tell us?
Sherpa Voyager: So it's the motivation that's the parallel?
Filthy Fluno: wishes artworld market could have made it tonight
Cosmica Mornington: I took a class this semester on the ethics of collecting ancient art
Cosmica Mornington: In RL of course
Cosmica Mornington: the course was divided into three main sections
Larkum Woodget: Is it ancient in SL if it was made before 2005?
Cosmica Mornington: the issues of: forgery, looting/stealing, and collecting/buying
Filthy Fluno: i have something from 2003
Larkum Woodget: wow
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Can they apply in SL?
Sherpa Voyager: How were these three sections chosen?
Cosmica Mornington: Yes, that's just what seems to be the case
Cosmica Mornington: I wasnt at all sure what I'd find when I started this
Sherpa Voyager: (Becuase they're all negative -- is there no way to interact with artifacts in a positive way?)
Filthy Fluno: sherpa is on FIRE tonight!
Cosmica Mornington: But after poking around, and talking to lots of people, it seems that many of the issues are the same
Cosmica Mornington: Sure there are positive ways
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I'd love to hear how, I so don't get it.
Sherpa Voyager: But they weren't included in the three sections you just mentioned ...
Cosmica Mornington: even thought the class was called the ethics for collcting, it was really about un-enthical collecting!
Larkum Woodget: Like the Elgin Marbles
Cosmica Mornington: exactly!
Sherpa Voyager: (This interests me rather a lot, as I also have a graduate academic background in history)
Cosmica Mornington: we had a big debate about that in class
Cosmica Mornington: who owns them, where they should be
Gracie Kendal: PLus teh Getty's recent acquisitions, I'm sure
Cosmica Mornington: whether they were stolen from Greece, etc.
Sherpa Voyager: So why weren't the positive aspects of the interaction part of the three divisions you mentioned?
Cosmica Mornington: oh, yes -- absolutely!
Eloise Pasteur: e.bind kneel wide
Cosmica Mornington: well, we did talk about legal buying of ancient art, but I forgot to mention that the course was listed under "Problems in Ancient Art"
Filthy Fluno: lookin good eloise
Eloise Pasteur: Thank you Sir :-)
Cosmica Mornington: so it was really about addressing the difficulties of collecting
Larkum Woodget: I think if you read the TOS everything bolongs to the Lindens
Filthy Fluno: well.. we're kinda leasing the ones and zeros i think
Cosmica Mornington: Actually, the TOS says residents own the intellectual property
Filthy Fluno: this is why I'm going more and more towards counterpARTS
Cosmica Mornington: what's counterpARTS, Filthy?
Larkum Woodget: it's a strange kind of ownership if we can't even save it to our own hard drives
Filthy Fluno: you buy somthing in SL and you get a RL print sent to your door
Lilleth Bailey: Hi Desi
Cosmica Mornington: oh, reight -- you were explaining that to me at the gallery
Cthulhu Coakes: as a 3d cg artist, all i see in SL is copyright infringments.... i mean, the whole thing is more or less a collection of stolen textures
Filthy Fluno: yes
Larkum Woodget: what about SL specific art?
Filthy Fluno: cthulhu
Cosmica Mornington: For my paper I'm only looking at SL-only art
Blackthorn Hare: talk to me, then, Cosmica
Gracie Kendal: Can you go into more about your paper
Sherpa Voyager: That makes it both more interesting and more difficult, I should think, Cosmica.
Lilleth Bailey: I know Desideria Stockton is also doing research on copyright and creative commons
Filthy Fluno: eloise.. will you pass a cookie please?
Cosmica Mornington: Well, I had to find a reasonable scope!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Yes, lets try and stay on topic. I see a future Art Talk on IP coming up!
Filthy Fluno: fact is, that if you put your artwork online.. in SL or on the internet, it can be stolen
Filthy Fluno: real basic principal
Eloise Pasteur hands cookies around
Filthy Fluno: so.. if it can be stolen
Filthy Fluno: at ease
Filthy Fluno: with ease
Cosmica Mornington: Right -- and it seems to me that those same three issues in collecting RL art are and issue for SL art
Blackthorn Hare: I think that's the big divide here: people who make art in RL and use SL to share (or sell or promote it), and on the other hand, people like myself who use SL as a primary medium
Gracie Kendal: Hey guys, can we stay on the topic?
Lilleth Bailey: Are you looking at creative commons licenses, too?
Filthy Fluno: yes and no
Filthy Fluno: steer us back Gracie
Filthy Fluno: my mind is moosh
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Future topic guys, come on.
Gracie Kendal: LOl well I sadly crashed so missed part of it
Filthy Fluno: oh
Eloise Pasteur: wb Desi
Sherpa Voyager: Talk about SL archaeology a little, Cosmica.
Bruskino Capalini: yes we want to hear about your reseach
Desideria Stockton: thanks
Sherpa Voyager: How is it defined?
Cosmica Mornington: I talked to a cfew SL archaeologists
Desideria Stockton: I am still rezzing
Cosmica Mornington: Some of them are RL archaeologists who have educational sims here
Sherpa Voyager: How does one *do* archaeology here?
Desideria Stockton: ao off
Cosmica Mornington: recreations of RL sites that people can interact with
Sherpa Voyager: Cool! Which sites?
Larkum Woodget: fascinatine
Cosmica Mornington: I talked to a role-playing character at the Wastelands sim
Larkum Woodget: g
Desideria Stockton: Indiana University of PA
Cosmica Mornington: who excavates SL artifacts
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I've near heard of such a thing!
Desideria Stockton: Crimson Isalnd received a huge grant for archeology
Gracie Kendal: wow
Cosmica Mornington: for instance, he's "found" "ancient" artifacts, like a hammer and some 20th-centruy tools
Cosmica Mornington: and they're for sale
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: that is wild....
Sherpa Voyager: I'd love to explore the sites -- would make for a great review on Second Seeker, where I work.
Cosmica Mornington: so this fact is really inersting in terms of how that's quite different from how archaeology works in RL!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: tell us how please
Sherpa Voyager: I guess in SL you have to KNOW something is there... whereas in RL there can still be unexpected discoveries.
Cosmica Mornington: Well, because "ethical" archaeological excavation shouldn't include buying the artifacts
Cosmica Mornington: EXCEPT!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: why not?
Cosmica Mornington: there are SL savalgers
Cosmica Mornington: they hide artifacts for people to find
Cosmica Mornington: or get together for hunts
Cthulhu Coakes: how do you put a value on SL "artifacts"... i mean, how do you know you've found something rare or even unique?
Lilleth Bailey: Perhaps I am misunderstanding the topic of the discussion tionught
Sherpa Voyager: Like geocaching, sounds like!
Lilleth Bailey: are you discussing copyright?
Cosmica Mornington: I suppose it is
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Like Desmond Shang's Tulips...
Cosmica Mornington: Back to your question Wake
Sherpa Voyager: No, Lilith, not copyright tonight.
Lilleth Bailey: ah
Lilleth Bailey: sorry, the announcement in search was wrong
Sherpa Voyager: Art and archaeology in SL.
Lilleth Bailey: have a great night :-)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (Copyright and IP will be an early January Art Talk)
Lilleth Bailey: Sorry, Desi
Cosmica Mornington: There are lots of relatively recent laws (in RL) that are about who owns things that come out of the ground
Cosmica Mornington: cultural property, etc.
Desideria Stockton: no problem - it happens
Sherpa Voyager: I think that's where the ethical issues get fuzzy. We have recent laws protecting artifacts, and in fact a whole new way of looking at excavations ... but to judge the past actions of others by our standards isn't right.
Cthulhu Coakes: do you know if irak has such laws now? or is it still more or less a free-for-all like at the times of the looting, cosmica?
Cosmica Mornington: I do know this
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: He who has the guns makes the laws.
Larkum Woodget: yes- backdating laws is graceless in the extreme
Gracie Kendal: Ok, but I still dont quite understandhow SL is involved.
Sherpa Voyager: Does it matter what laws are in Iraq? The occupying forces ignore them anyway. American soldiers have looted Baghdad's museums...
Cosmica Mornington: The looting was always illegal -- of course that didn't stop it
Sherpa Voyager: Nice phrasing, Larkum.
Cosmica Mornington: there have been efforts to stem the sale and trade of the stuff now
Cthulhu Coakes: yeah, i dont mean the looting, i mean the trade in "cultural properties"
Larkum Woodget: XD
Sherpa Voyager: Doesn't stop it today, either.
Cthulhu Coakes: ah, ok...thanks
Cosmica Mornington: right -- there are several UNESCO and other international agreements that try to keep the stolen and illegally acquired stuff off the market
Cosmica Mornington: nearly impossible to do of course
Gracie Kendal: Cosmica, I understand your dissertation is on the ethics on collecting in SL...
Sherpa Voyager: Vut there will always be a black market -- for the truly rich who want the artifacts.
Cosmica Mornington: oh, it's not my dissertation -- this is the final project for one class
Gracie Kendal: ahhh...ok..hehe
Cosmica Mornington: Yes, Sherpa - -that's very true
Sherpa Voyager: Is the dissertation finished? I'd be interested in reading it.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: gracie has dissertation on her mind...
Gracie Kendal: so what are the 'the ethics of collecting in SL' then?
Cosmica Mornington: not ready for dissertation quite yet
Gracie Kendal: LOL yes, Im actually writing my masters thesis on SL :))
Gracie Kendal: SL art that is :)
Cosmica Mornington: still more classes to take
Cosmica Mornington: Hey, that's really interesting!
Sherpa Voyager: Wow. SL is spawning academics everywhere ...
Gracie Kendal: Yep, in Art History :)
Bruskino Capalini: its about time
Gracie Kendal: lol
Sherpa Voyager: Ah, yes. Coursework, exams, and then the dissertation. I remember it from my won graduate work. Good luck: you still have a ways to go.
Sherpa Voyager: own, that was, not won.
Cosmica Mornington: So part of the ethics class was about the dealer/artist/collector relationship
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: can you describe the relationship?
Gracie Kendal: ahhh, ok great.
Sherpa Voyager: Elucidate some, please, Cosmica.
Cosmica Mornington: I know a lot of you sell your own work, but what about those who work with dealier?
Cosmica Mornington: Oh, sure
Gracie Kendal: in sl?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: If it wasn't for Morris Vig I'd be naked!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: oh... uhh....
Gracie Kendal: LOLOL
Cosmica Mornington: We talked about the ways in which a dealer can manipulate the market
Gracie Kendal: hmmmm
Sherpa Voyager: Is there an ethical issue involved in being a dealer? A gallery owner?
Sherpa Voyager: Do they really have that kind of power?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I would think that RL dealers would mostly be in it for the money.
Gracie Kendal: But are there really dealers in SL?
Cosmica Mornington: Again, since the class had to do with collecting illegal artifacts, we focused on the neagtive!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I wonder what the "illegal SL dealer" would be like.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Selling forgeries perhaps?
Sky Hye: What about Gracie's question... Dealers in sl?
Cosmica Mornington: Right!
Sherpa Voyager: Indeed. I'd have hoped that ethics classes would look at both sides of the equation... but I haven't been in academia for years, dont know what has changed.
Gracie Kendal: LOL yea...thats the only way I can see....is a gallery owner in SL..selling other peoples work without their knowledge
Sherpa Voyager: Yes:talk about dealers and gallery owners in SL please.
Cthulhu Coakes: i just saw "exclusive" works on sale in an SL gallery today.... so people are promised that there's only one of its kind. how could you ever be sure of that, in a digital world?
Cosmica Mornington: YEs, that's a question I had too
Gracie Kendal: Thats a whole other issue Cthulhu :)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Filthy and I both sell limited editions.
Gracie Kendal: Filthy sells limited editions...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Or at least I try to sell them, it comes down to trust.
Gracie Kendal: Yes..
Gracie Kendal: LOL
Gracie Kendal: exactly
Sherpa Voyager: Trust in the art world? Larkum Woodget: lol
Gracie Kendal: because really...nothing is original or limited in the digital world.
Cosmica Mornington: That's a really interesting point!
Gracie Kendal: yea...there has been a lot of talk about this in the past
Larkum Woodget: Oh I disagree- originality is very real in the digital world
Filthy Fluno: i agree larkum
Cthulhu Coakes: ..especially with paintings beeing sold... i mean, the texture quality here isnt high enough that would rule out people taking screenshots, uploading them and selling the whole thing again, even if the dealer does take it siriously
Filthy Fluno: the original is the first one you make
Cosmica Mornington: Talk about that!
Sherpa Voyager: Originality is key in *any* world, isn't it?
Larkum Woodget: yes
Larkum Woodget: and it doesn't have to be a copy of anything from RL
Filthy Fluno: however, i'm moving away from the SL only limited edition model
Gracie Kendal: LOL filthy.
Sherpa Voyager: Or else it's not art. Or poetry. Or whatever ... it's imitation. Isn't art by definition creative and original?
Filthy Fluno: lok
Gracie Kendal: hmmmm...
Cthulhu Coakes: i've seen "art" that i didnt find a bit original....but thats another discussion ;)
Gracie Kendal: LOl yea, there are many levels to originality..
Gracie Kendal: the idea may be original...
Cosmica Mornington: Does anyone here sell their work through someone else? Another gallery, or dealer?
Sherpa Voyager: Yeah ... is originality in the eye of the artist or in the eye of the beholder?
Gracie Kendal: but..the art we make in SL is a reproduction....
Sky Hye: not me
Gracie Kendal: but..that canget really theoretical...LOL
Gracie Kendal: Hi Sparkling :)
Sparkling Saintlouis: Hi Gracie
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I get most of my sales through a dealer, Morris Vig of Oyster Bay.
Sparkling Saintlouis: His everyone
Sparkling Saintlouis: Hi, everyone
Filthy Fluno: yes
Filthy Fluno: i do Cosmica
Gracie Kendal: yes, me too
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: you do Filthy???? I didn't know.
Cthulhu Coakes: actually with my profession i would be pr-destined to create and sell stuff in SL.... but i wont. I just dont trust SL all that much, and i feel i dont have enough control over the use and whereabouts of my work here
Cosmica Mornington: I wonder if the artists/dealer relationship is the same, or different in SL than it is in RL
Gracie Kendal: Oh I think different
Larkum Woodget: I hear that Cthulhu
Cosmica Mornington: How so?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I think we have a the whole gamut of trust or lack thereof here.
Filthy Fluno: i think its close to RL
Larkum Woodget: :-)
Gracie Kendal: LOL
Filthy Fluno: but.. there isn't really any authority on art value in here yet
Sky Hye: and there is in rl?
Gracie Kendal: well...a lot has to do with money...and not much money is made on SL art
Filthy Fluno: no place you can go to check how much a Kendall is going for
Filthy Fluno: artnet
Larkum Woodget: Yes- You're born with a big lump of trust and whatever it gets whittled down to is what you're left with
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Cosmica, you should read teh transcript of when we had teh Rezzable CEO here, burn your ears off.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I'll send you the URL
Gracie Kendal: so the dealers are here more to promote than to make money
Sherpa Voyager: It's not just SL, it's the digital world. A lot of writers are seeing their material taken and reproduced on the web ... it's a real problem.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: ( http://www.artropolitans.com/110507-rezzablearttalk.txt )
Cthulhu Coakes: well, in RL i have a customer, he want me to do something, and ill tell him what it'll cost. deal done, im happy , hes happy. ..... Sure money for my work.
Cosmica Mornington: Have any of you found your work reproduced somewhere it shouldn't have been?
Sherpa Voyager: Though in SL you have the illusion of relationships, which adds a layer of complication to it all.
Sky Hye: Yes, online.
Filthy Fluno: yes
Gracie Kendal: no, never Cosmica
Filthy Fluno: but i was really pleased!
Filthy Fluno: may i show you?
Gracie Kendal: lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I don't think so...
Cthulhu Coakes: here id hesitate to create something on comision.... everyone is anonymous...
Larkum Woodget: I don't know if SL relationships are more illusory than RL ones
Filthy Fluno: cthulhu
Filthy Fluno: i do mostly commissioned work in SL
Filthy Fluno: rl artwork about avatars and their adventures in SL
OD>> Artist: StratusBlaster Filthy 1: Built For Filthy Fluno By Ortho Vargas
Larkum Woodget: friendships here can be pretty tight
Sherpa Voyager: Ah, Larkum, you have a point ... I guess I was comparing it to the anonymity of those who often steal on the web, outside of SL.
Larkum Woodget: yes- SL is an opportunity for the sociopathic
Sherpa Voyager: It's easy to trust here and not necessarily the right thing to do. At least out there you *know* not to trust.
Cthulhu Coakes: ...maybe im just old fashioned.... hehe... and i dont like to do low-poly stuff...its boring.... but i stry far off topic
Larkum Woodget: ah yes
Larkum Woodget: ic your point
Gracie Kendal: Filthy, did you know about that?
Gracie Kendal: using yoru image for the guitar?
Gracie Kendal: is that what you are showing us?
Sherpa Voyager: (I'm speaking, of course, as one who trusts far too easily. Listen to what I say, don't do as I do!)
Filthy Fluno: thsi guy took this image off my website
Filthy Fluno: yes gracie
Filthy Fluno: told me after the fact
Filthy Fluno: and put it on a guitar
Gracie Kendal: ahhhh
Filthy Fluno: but i love it
Gracie Kendal: yea...its great
Larkum Woodget: yes we're all babes in the woods here to a degree
Sherpa Voyager: Does he pay you for use of it?
Filthy Fluno: and can't wait until everyone and their mom gets one
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Do you get paid?
Filthy Fluno: he pays me in publicity
Gracie Kendal: so true
Filthy Fluno: its not like i'm gonna LOSE money or that I'm gonna miss the oh... few thousand lindens
Sky Hye: rl artists are less likely to accept publicity as payment, if they are trying to get real money -- at least that's my view on the matter.
Sherpa Voyager: But it's a slippery slope, Filthy.
Cthulhu Coakes: heh, yeah thats a constant walk on a knife edge... do you let stolen stuff pass because it might be free publicity or do you go after the thiefes.... i know the problem
Larkum Woodget: I take Lindens very seriously- I hate losing even 10 of them
Filthy Fluno: Sky... i agree
Sherpa Voyager: Where do you draw the line?
Filthy Fluno: but... its just too darn cool
Filthy Fluno: i was honored
Filthy Fluno: its not like they're making RL prints and selling them at RL art fairs and galleries
Filthy Fluno: its only SL
Filthy Fluno: whichis cool by me
Filthy Fluno: and i too make a living selling art
Sherpa Voyager: I wonder if you find that when artists are not paid for their work, it lowers collectors' expectations -- so they start thinking that no artist should be paid ...
Filthy Fluno: its how i pay my mortgage
Larkum Woodget: ah yes
Filthy Fluno: no sherpa
Gracie Kendal: No sherpa
Sky Hye: I used to accept the idea that some opportunity is great because of publicity, even if the pay is horrible or none at all. It was always some claim that this was good for visibility -- but one thing never led to another.
Cthulhu Coakes: id be really pissed if someone took one of my pics from my website and sells it in RL or SL... doesnt matter much does it?
Filthy Fluno: well... its already brought a few people to my gallery
Sherpa Voyager: It's that way in the writing world. Beginning writers willing to work for exposure lower the standards for all freelancers. But I stray too far from the topic.
Larkum Woodget: creative types are always easy to swindle because we have so much else on our minds
Filthy Fluno: i think you need to weigh and balance every opportunity in front of you
Filthy Fluno: saying a blanket yes or no to anything is dumb
Scarp Godenot: I get ripped off on my website all the time, but I figure it is the cost of doing business for the real buyers. I think the rip offs wouldn't every pay anyway.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: well said Filthy.
Larkum Woodget: we have to remind ourselves that money is important
Sherpa Voyager: That's an excellent position, Filthy.
Gracie Kendal: Ok guys....Cosmica is our special guest and we are getting way off topic!!
Sherpa Voyager: Yes... arts should be fairly compensated, just like other professions.
Larkum Woodget: so true
Filthy Fluno: lol
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: But... I think we are diverging again from the topic!
Cosmica Mornington: No no this is very interesting to me!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: LOL! gracie, I owe you one.
Filthy Fluno: this is art talk
Scarp Godenot: The issue on a website is how big to make your images to sell your art versus having them be useful in a web context when they are stolen.
Cthulhu Coakes: i just draw the line where someone is making money off my work. i cant have that
Gracie Kendal: hehe thx :)(
Filthy Fluno: we're suppose to get off topic
Cosmica Mornington: because these are issues that exist in SL and RL
Filthy Fluno: to a certain degree!
Filthy Fluno: i think we're doing GREAT tonight!
Gracie Kendal: lol
Sherpa Voyager: Making artists stay on topic is like herding cats.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: (Art Talk - We're supposed to get off topic - I'll have Esch make up the posters...)
Scarp Godenot: ha ha sherpa.... so true.
Sherpa Voyager: So who here is a *collector*?
Gracie Kendal: lmao
Filthy Fluno: nice wake
Larkum Woodget: lol
Filthy Fluno: i'm a collector!
Gracie Kendal: Esch would have interrupted before I did...LOL
Scarp Godenot: I collect my own art in my basement.
Larkum Woodget: I have a small collection of art
Sherpa Voyager: Are there ethics of collecting in SL?
Larkum Woodget: about 12 things by other artists
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I'm a RL collector, small fry, that's all...
Cosmica Mornington: How about collecting SL-only art?
Filthy Fluno: i collect from SL artists who also have RL art to sell
Gracie Kendal: I collect in SL and RL..but I collect art because I love it...
Larkum Woodget: yes I collect SL only art too
Gracie Kendal: not because its work money
Cosmica Mornington: does anyone buy atuff regularly?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: I met a Starax collector, he had LOTS.
Filthy Fluno: i collect on both
Filthy Fluno: something i love and somthing i think will grow in value
Filthy Fluno: what can i say... im a jew
Sherpa Voyager: So what are the ethics therein, people, to get back to Cosmica ...?
Gracie Kendal: I never consider value
Gracie Kendal: lmao Filthy
Larkum Woodget: you pay the lindens
Filthy Fluno: ok ethics
Scarp Godenot: Is a "collector" someone who hopes to benefit from resale at higher prices versus somebody buying pieces for themselves for the love of it?
Filthy Fluno: my expecations are quite low
Filthy Fluno: i buy from the artist
Filthy Fluno: i expect them to deliver what they say
Larkum Woodget: that's an investor
Cosmica Mornington: That's interesting, Filthy
Sherpa Voyager: Scarp, what sort of art do you do?
Filthy Fluno: example
Filthy Fluno: today.. i get in the mail
Scarp Godenot: I'm a photographer
Filthy Fluno: two hand made books from an artist from italy
Cosmica Mornington: So you can be confident of authenticity?
Scarp Godenot: Check my profile, I have a website... take a look
Filthy Fluno: these things are gorgeous
Filthy Fluno: i am cosmica
Filthy Fluno: i get RL info
Filthy Fluno: and photos
Filthy Fluno: and if its a bargain
Filthy Fluno: i buy
Larkum Woodget: hand made books are nice- rag paper?
Cthulhu Coakes: im not even sure what SL-only art is supposed to be.... its largely the same as RL art, just another way of "distributing" isnt it?
Filthy Fluno: yes
Larkum Woodget: yummy
Filthy Fluno: gorgeously thickly textured paper
Sherpa Voyager: Not only that --- Wake does art in SL he could never do in RL.
Scarp Godenot: There is a group of SL photographers promoting SL photography as a stand alone art form.
Gracie Kendal: It's ART, pure and simple
Filthy Fluno: i think that's fine scarp
Gracie Kendal: Art is art I think.
Filthy Fluno: as long as they don't lump me into that heap of shit
Scarp Godenot: The Avatrait Gallery folks.
Sherpa Voyager: But the media have to mean *something*.
Larkum Woodget: yeah- you know it when you see or when you make it
Filthy Fluno: i've got a RL book of the last Cannery SL Photography show
Scarp Godenot: Meaning can come from beauty.
Gracie Kendal: oh, so you are the only one who bought it???
Gracie Kendal: LOL
Filthy Fluno: yes gracie!
Filthy Fluno: i'm #2
Filthy Fluno: lol
Gracie Kendal: LOL
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Cosmica has been having PC problems, she'll be back...
Gracie Kendal: ahh, ok :)
Filthy Fluno: its cool!
Gracie Kendal: Hey Cole :)
Filthy Fluno: great athroom picture book
Filthy Fluno: bathroom
Sherpa Voyager: Seems to me that just transferring the same media to SL is different from creating something here you couldn't create elsewhere.
Filthy Fluno: sherpa
Filthy Fluno: i get that alot
Filthy Fluno: one thing that peeps forget is that my artwork is derived from SL
Sherpa Voyager: No value jusgment, Filthy --- just *different*.
Filthy Fluno: i agree
Filthy Fluno: np
Filthy Fluno: i got thick skin.. no worries even if you have a prob with what i do
Filthy Fluno: i mean
Filthy Fluno: its all good
Gracie Kendal: LOL
Filthy Fluno: dialogue is what's most important in here
Gracie Kendal: but..its just a label
Gracie Kendal: It is different....
Gracie Kendal: like anythign else...
Gracie Kendal: but its all still ART
Scarp Godenot: I am thinking of a RL show of SL photography in the next few months myself.
Filthy Fluno: i would even go so far to say that FIlthy Fluno is a new media art
Sherpa Voyager: I don't have a problem with what you do ... I just think about what makes it different in each place. There may be a lot there of which I'm unaware. But one of the great things about SL is precisely in that it's *not* RL... otherwise, why come here at all?
Filthy Fluno: i agree Sherpa
Larkum Woodget: hear here!
Gracie Kendal: LOL yes, Filthy...we need to talk about that :))
Filthy Fluno: native art is cool in here
Filthy Fluno: i just don't get all that excited about art that I ONLY can view on my computer
Cthulhu Coakes: heh...the age old question:"what is art".... well, everything that says it is
Scarp Godenot: Sherpa, there are a million reasons to come here and one of them is to interact with RL art!
Larkum Woodget: I don't mind- my computer's on all the time anyway
Gracie Kendal: SO true Scarp :)
Sherpa Voyager: But -- sorry to keep bringing this back to Wake -- this space is *really* exciting when it enables you to create something you could *never* create in RL.
Filthy Fluno: i agree
Filthy Fluno: thank god for SL as a tool for artists
Filthy Fluno: another tool to express themselves
Gracie Kendal: yea..but artists have been playing around with that idea gfor centuries....
Scarp Godenot: Like SL kinetic sculpture. I'm experimenting with this now! It is amazing.
Gracie Kendal: each new period..was something that wasnt able to be done before
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: gosh...
Gracie Kendal: and each new technology allowed that to happen...like SL allows different art to be made
Sherpa Voyager: Right, Gracie ... and each one stretched and changed the boundaries and meaning of art.
Gracie Kendal: yes, absolutely
Filthy Fluno: its important to have people in SL who are saying...
Larkum Woodget: artists allways like to be where it's at- the cutting edge - and right now this is it
Filthy Fluno: hey wait a minute.. i think that's bullshit
Gracie Kendal: Thats why Im doing my thesis on SL Art
Gracie Kendal: LOL Filthy
Filthy Fluno: hooooray gracie!
Cthulhu Coakes: looks like im the only cynic here about SL..... :P
Gracie Kendal: LOL yea, no thanks to you :)
Sherpa Voyager: No, it's not. Part of being an artist is seeing things that others don't see ... and that's pretty cutting-edge.
Filthy Fluno: WELL.. cthulhu.. cynic or not.. youi're always welcome to say what's on your mind here
Scarp Godenot: I was born yesterday and I'm proud! ha ha
Gracie Kendal: LOL
Filthy Fluno: when i made this drawing... i never thought in a million years that i'd be dancing around with it as the paintjob on a fender strat
Filthy Fluno: and that's gotta go down in the history books
Filthy Fluno: or at least
Cthulhu Coakes: see, i dont see SL as anything recolutionary or new even..... if seen many internet "big things " see come and pass.... and SL is right in line with all the rest of it... 99% junk and 1 % substance
Filthy Fluno: in my diary
Sherpa Voyager: I don't know what I'm talking about, anyway .. probably the only one here who isn't an artist ... PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Have you been tempted to put it on a RL strat?
Filthy Fluno: oh cthulhu
Filthy Fluno: i really disagree with you
Filthy Fluno: because here in SL
Gracie Kendal: Yea, me too, Cthulgu
Gracie Kendal: ugh
Filthy Fluno: people have emotional investment in the things they own
Larkum Woodget: as artists we must concern ourselves with the 1 % of substance
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: 99% of everything is junk
Filthy Fluno: emotional invelstment in the relationships we make in SL
Larkum Woodget: so true Wake!
Sherpa Voyager: Does having an emotional investment necessarily impart value?
Scarp Godenot: Cthulhu, "3D" virtual worlds will proliferate and this is the first rich content one.
Filthy Fluno: this is revolutionary
Sherpa Voyager: I think not.
Sky Hye: Yes, the emotional investment does impart value.
Filthy Fluno: ask ibm, google, sony, everyone else trying to create virtual worlds
Sherpa Voyager: Perhaps for the creator ...
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Yes, i agree, Linden may fold but places like this will be here a long time
Filthy Fluno: ask just the people
Filthy Fluno: something very special happening here
Sherpa Voyager: .. but not necessarily for anyone else...
Scarp Godenot: INternet standards are now being drafted for VR "worlds" on the 'ol interweb...
Filthy Fluno: its not Top Down content
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: what does that mean Filthy?
Scarp Godenot: I
Filthy Fluno: it means that we make the stuff here
Cthulhu Coakes: this is only the logical conclusion of things..... technology of any standard game mixed with chat and content creation.....what is revolutionary about it? (not to mention that it lags seriously on a tchnical level behind the cutting edge)
Filthy Fluno: that's part of the vlue
Sky Hye: For example, I've been told by people who own my portraits of family members that the portrait is what they would rescue first from a fire.
Scarp Godenot: The content is created by the residents and not the company...
Scarp Godenot: Bottom up...
Sherpa Voyager: Sky, I see your point.
Cthulhu Coakes: youtube, anyone? conent creation ill call that too
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: that's because you portraits are irreplaceable
Scarp Godenot: Youtube is mostly stolen content.... heh
Sky Hye: But even more so, if it is of a family member.
Cthulhu Coakes: another parallel ;)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Folks, the hour is up, feel free to continue, the landlord won't kick us out.
Gracie Kendal: Oh yay, back to Corsica's topic with Stolen content...LOL
Filthy Fluno: youtube content is different
Gracie Kendal: Cosmica*
Gracie Kendal: hehe sorry :)
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: But remember, no ARt Talk next week, the week after, "Intellectual Property and Art in SL"
Cosmica Mornington: Ha! No prob
Cthulhu Coakes: but its content creation by the user just as much as SL.....
Filthy Fluno: its video
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: We can talk about theft then also.
Filthy Fluno: thanks Wake
Filthy Fluno: thanks for doing another great talk man
Cosmica Mornington: Thanks so much Wake
Sky Hye: Another interesting exploration!
Larkum Woodget: thanks everyone it's been stimulating
Gracie Kendal: yes, thanks so much Wake :))
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: You're welcome, welcome.
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: This was a great one.
Filthy Fluno: wake.. do you save all the transcripts here
Gracie Kendal: Thak you for coming Cosmica :)
Filthy Fluno: like log all the chats?
Sparkling Saintlouis: Thanks for letting us sit in!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Yes, I have all transcripts.
Filthy Fluno: awesome
Gracie Kendal: can I get a copy Wake?
Scarp Godenot: I'm in the mood to keep talking, anybody else?
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Do you want them for the website?
Gracie Kendal: Since I had crashed, missed some :(
Cosmica Mornington: Ooh! I crashed and lost the chat -- can I also have one from you Wake?
Filthy Fluno: yes wake
Filthy Fluno: i think we should get them all together
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Yes, gracie, I'll get it to you. email me, I'm wake@secondseeker.com
Filthy Fluno: find an editor
Gracie Kendal: definitely :)
Filthy Fluno: and do something on lulu.com or cafepress
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: We'll talk over Beers on Thursday Flithy.
Filthy Fluno: maybe collect them quarterly
Filthy Fluno: yes wake
Filthy Fluno: wooot!
PleaseWakeMeUp Idler: Bye!!!!
Filthy Fluno: beeahs on thurs!
Filthy Fluno: bye!
Gracie Kendal: Take care :)
Filthy Fluno: cthulu
Scarp Godenot: Care take!
Cosmica Mornington: Goodbye everyone -- thanks very much!
Sky Hye: Bye Wake
Bruskino Capalini: bye wake
Cthulhu Coakes: present. :)
Filthy Fluno: another thing that i find exlcusive to SL and not the internet